Hey TC,
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Travis Clementsmith
Now, there is a difference in the way "New Testament Scholars" go about "confirming such things that differs in the way historians go about it in other areas. First and foremost, all evidence is internal. What this means is that the evidence is considered "authentic" if they can find slight references to other works within the same structure (i.e. early Christian writings). It has no external evidence, sources outside said structure, which is usually an ingredient most historians consider necessary in order to claim whatever historical event that is being studied "highly probable".
|
I reject this dichotomy. Firstly, it sounds like you're saying those ***grapes*** were sour anyway as you walk away in frustration after being exposed to unison scholarship.
Secondly, you seem to be alluding to the criterion of multiple attestation as being more credible if the attenstation comes from opponents of Christianity. However, in your last reply in the direct one-on-one debate forum you reject what opponent's thought of Jesus as being interpolated by Christians even before Christianity became a state religion.
Thirdly, multiple attestation for a historical source outside the ideology is of course desirable, but is only a contributing factor to deciding historical authenticity. If you reject multiple authenticity that is not within the society in which that source emerged, then history as an enterprise would collapse (e.g., European medieval history).
Besides, I already mentioned that Lucian of Samosata (a pagan) in
De Morta Peregrini (167 CE) shows familiarity with the same Greek phrase used in Ignatius's letter to the Smyrnaeans and also to Polycarp (the phrase is "couriers of God"). If Ignatius's letters were unknown in 167 CE, then why is this Greek phrase used in a manner similar to how Ignatius used the phrase?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TC
At most, all that can be said is that some of the stories about the young religion were in verbal circulation that were later added into Luke and Acts. This in no manner dates either of these books.
|
Please provide a scholarly citation for this claim.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TC
Normally, historians would stop there. But, New Testament Scholarship is willing to accept this specious tie as evidence, so we'll play along.
|
Please give me a citation from a recognized scholarly source that says historians "stop there." I get the strong impression that you are making this stuff up as you go along.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TC
Let's say, for argument's sake, Ignatius is quoting Luke and Acts. How do we verify the authenticity of the Ignatius Epistles themselves? I'm going to quotw from Casselss examination, Supernatural Religion: As we can see, all internal verification, and actually very few direct references within that. Wait, it gets even sketchier: So how do we choose which are the seven "authentic" one described by Eusebius since he doesn't name any of them?
|
We have references in history from Ireneaus who quotes from the Ignatius's letter to the Romans, Origen who quotes from Ignatius's letter to the Romans and to the Ephesians, Polycarp who mentions the letter from Ignatius letter to him, and Eusebius says the following:
Quote:
So when he came to Smyrna, where Polycarp was, he wrote an epistle to the church of Ephesus, in which he mentions Onesimus, its pastor; and another to the church of Magnesia, situated upon the Mĉander, in which he makes mention again of a bishop Damas; and finally one to the church of Tralles, whose bishop, he states, was at that time Polybius.
6. In addition to these he wrote also to the church of Rome, entreating them not to secure his release from martyrdom, and thus rob him of his earnest hope. In confirmation of what has been said it is proper to quote briefly from this epistle.
7. He writes as follows: “From Syria even unto Rome I fight with wild beasts, by land and by sea, by night and by day, being bound amidst ten leopards.
8. May I have joy of the beasts that are prepared for me; and I pray that I may find them ready; I will even coax them to devour me quickly that they may not treat me as they have some whom they have refused to touch through fear. And if they are unwilling, I will compel them. Forgive me.
9. I know what is expedient for me. Now do I begin to be a disciple. May naught of things visible and things invisible envy me; that I may attain unto Jesus Christ. Let fire and cross and attacks of wild beasts, let wrenching of bones, cutting of limbs, crushing of the whole body, tortures of the devil,—let all these come upon me if only I may attain unto Jesus Christ.”
10. These things he wrote from the above-mentioned city to the churches referred to. And when he had left Smyrna he wrote again from Troas. That Troas was the place from which Ignatius wrote to the Philadelphians, to the Smyrnĉans, and to Polycarp is clear from indications in the epistles themselves. The chronological order in which the three were written is uncertain. He had visited both churches upon his journey to Troas and had seen Polycarp in Smyrna. to the Philadelphians and to the church of Smyrna; and particularly to Polycarp, who presided over the latter church. And since he knew him well as an apostolic man, he commended to him, like a true and good shepherd, the flock at Antioch, and besought him to care diligently for it.
11. And the same man, writing to the Smyrnĉans, used the following words concerning Christ, taken I know not whence: “But I know and believe that he was in the flesh after the resurrection. And when he came to Peter and his companions he said to them, Take, handle me, and see that I am not an incorporeal spirit. And immediately they touched him and believed.”
12. Irenĉus also knew of his martyrdom and mentions his epistles in the following words: “As one of our people said, when he was condemned to the beasts on account of his testimony unto God, I am God’s wheat, and by the teeth of wild beasts am I ground, that I may be found pure bread.”
13. Polycarp also mentions these letters in the epistle to the Philippians which is ascribed to him. (CCEL.ORG accessed Feb 21 2008)
|
So, we have references to each of the major Ignatius letters from antiquity.
* Note: Edited from apples to grapes to use the correct expression.