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  #131 (permalink)  
Old 3rd April 2008, 07:26 AM
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Of course, all this preceeds his vision of God, that is, His heavenly host. Ezekiel also gives us some insight to the "abominations" committed in the Temple at Jerusalem. Ezekiel is taken to the "inner court that faces North, where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provokes to jealousy." This, of course, is Yahweh/El Qanna, the jealous God who is apparently even jealous of His own image! Ezekiel is shown a hole in the north court wall, which he excavates to find a door:

Quote:
8:9-13 And God said to me, "Go in, and see the vile abominations that they are committing here." So I went in and saw; and there, portrayed upon the walls round about, were all kinds of creeping things, and loathsome beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel. And before them stood seventy men of the elders of the house of Israel, with Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan standing among them. Each had his censer in his hand, and the smoke of the cloud of incense went up. Then he said to me, "Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the dark, every man in his room of pictures? For they say, 'The Lord does not see us, the Lord has forsaken the land.'" He said also to me, "You will see even greater abominations which they commit."

He then shows them where the women are weeping for the dying and resurrecting god, Tammuz. The Christians will adapt Tammuz into one of Jesus' disciples, Thomas, "Jesus' Twin".

He then shows him 25 men praying to the Sun. If I were to guess, it appears to be a time of drought and famine. The elders are saying God has abandoned the land, the women are weeping for the fertility/agricultural god, Tammuz, while other men are praying to the Sun, either to abate its impact or make things grow. So what does God do to these poor men, women and children? He slaughters them , of course. Can't stand this kind of idolatry, they are obviously not passing His test and reverting back to "other gods".

-TC
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  #132 (permalink)  
Old 4th April 2008, 07:17 PM
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Moses and the Tabernacle (Tent of the Sun)

Josephus records (emphasis mine):

Quote:
And when [Moses] ordered twelve loaves to be set on the table, he denoted the year, as distinguished into so many months. By branching out the candlestick into seventy parts he secretly intimated the Decani, or seventy divisions of the planets; and as to the seven lamps upon the candlesticks, they referred to the course of the planets, of which that is the number....Now the vestment of the high priests being made of linen, signified the earth; the blue denoted the sky, being like lightning in its pomegranates, and in the the noise of the bells resembling thunder....Each of the sardonyxes declares to us the sun and the moon; those, I mean, that were in the nature of the buttons on the high priest's shoulders. As for he twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months, or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that circle which the Greeks call the Zodiac, we shall not be mistaken in their meaning.


Decani: any of the three divisions of ten degrees in each sign of the Zodiac; also, the ruler of such a division



sardonyx: an onyx marked by parallel layers of sard and of mineral of another color



So, we can see that the Jews were not unfamiliar with astrology, but also adapted their own versions and interpretations. Notice, Josephus uses the term secretly to talk about this practice, suggesting the Jews also had their own mysteries. I realize all this is speculative, but I am presenting background to help build my case.

-TC
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  #133 (permalink)  
Old 4th April 2008, 08:24 PM
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Judaism

TC:

Torah and halacha forbid the use of astrology since the belief is that it is not the position of the cosmos that determines our fate here on Earth. However, with that being said, when one gets into Kaballah, there's the teaching found there that God often uses signs to tell give us messages and that those who are wise may be able to get a glimpse of the future through these signs.

It's a very fine line.
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  #134 (permalink)  
Old 4th April 2008, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metis
TC:

Torah and halacha forbid the use of astrology since the belief is that it is not the position of the cosmos that determines our fate here on Earth. However, with that being said, when one gets into Kaballah, there's the teaching found there that God often uses signs to tell give us messages and that those who are wise may be able to get a glimpse of the future through these signs.

It's a very fine line.

I have no doubt that it does, just as Christianity also attempted to demonize it. What I think is happening, is that civilization, as a whole, is moving from magically based interpretations into mythically based interpretations. So, even while the roots of the magical system are there, they are reinvented or explained in a different manner to reflect the new paradigm of thinking. In modern times, we see this same conflict, except now its between high mythic and rational; and even now between rational and aperspectival.

In this manner, we equate modern Christianity and Judaism as opposed to or indifferent to astrology. But, our mistake is that we take our more modern perspectives and place them in an era when such divisions were not as strong. In this sense, theology develops, its not a static interpretation identifiable only by its supposed historic events, it evolves with the psychology/sociology of the time.

So, as we go through this examination, I hope I don't leave the impression that I think the religions of today are practicing astrology in disguise. Instead, what I'm trying to convey, is that many of the religious traditions that were differentiated by their cultural expressions actually have more common ancestral bases. That the worship of the heavens is a commonality of human beings in general which simply gets expressed differently.

I also want to emphasize that just because the ancients used astrology as a means of relating their insights does not mean that I don't think those insights have a real common source, i.e., mystical insight. As civilizations moved from an emphasis on the polytheistic aspects of God into the monotheistic quality of the source they all spring from, we see the deepening insights from the contemplative path, no matter which culture expresses it. Part of the reason I like to examine these things is because I think it de-emphasizes the cultural differences and puts more of the focus on the source itself. I'm not out to disprove Christianity or Judaism or any other religion for that matter, only to show that we don't have to stay with one expression of it (mostly, a high-mythic expression). The traditions should be able to move into deeper insights instead of being distracted by supposed historical persons and events of a time long past.

-TC
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  #135 (permalink)  
Old 4th April 2008, 11:37 PM
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Is Moses a Composite of Other Gods/Heroes?

Moses also has parallels in other cultures:

Manou is the Indian legislator
Nemo is the Babylonian lawgiver and brings down tablets from the Mountain of God
Mises is found in Syria and is pulled from a floating reed basket out of a river
Manes was the Egyptian lawgiver
Minos was the Cretan reformer

The name Moses is Egyptian and comes from mo, and means water, or uses of water; Moses meaning "saved from water".

Walker relates:

Quote:
The Moses tale was originally of an Egyptian hero, Ra-Harakhti, the reborn sun god of Canopus, whose life story was copied by biblical scholars. The same story was told of the sun hero fathered by Apollo on the virgin Creusa; of Sargon, king of Akkad in 2242 BC; and of the mythological twin founders of Rome, among many other baby heroes set adrift in rush baskets. It was a common theme.
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  #136 (permalink)  
Old 5th April 2008, 12:05 AM
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Is Jacob a Sky God/Hero?

We haven't talked much about the older Egyptian myths, but one of these involves Horus (who represents the day sky) and Set/Seth (the night sky). Originally, these were twins, aspects of the One God. Eventually, they come to be represented as adversaries.

Jacob, father of the twelve tribes, is the supplanter (Iakovo), which is the title for the adversary and twin of the Sun. Thus, Jacob (the night sky) gives birth to the Zodiac. Possible interpretation:

Aquarius - Reuben, "the beginning of my strength...unstable as water"
Gemini - Simeon and Levi, "the brothers"
Leo - Judah, the "lion's welp"
Libra - Zebulun, "shall be an haven for ships" (Libra can be a "ship sign, arc, or ark)
Taurus - Issachar, "strong ass, crouching between the sheepfold's burdens"
Scorpio - Dan, "shall be the serpent in the way, so that his rider shall fall backwards" could possibly be the scorpion placed next to the centaur/armed horseman, Sagittarius, which falleth backwards into the winter solstice of Capricorn
Pisces - Gad, which is the reversal of Dag, the fish god
Virgo - Asher, he has "rich food" or "fat bread", Virgo being the "bread giver or fall harvest
Capricorn - Naphtali, "a hind let loose"
Sagittarius - Joseph, "attacked by archers"
Aries - Benjamin, the "ravenous wolf" who divides the spoil" and "comes in like a lion", dividing spring and winter
Cancer - Ephraim and Manasseh, the "double sign" of cancer, share the "portion divided between them"

Jacob's ladder has 72 angels ascending and descending, representing the decans.
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  #137 (permalink)  
Old 5th April 2008, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Clementsmith
What I think is happening, is that civilization, as a whole, is moving from magically based interpretations into mythically based interpretations. So, even while the roots of the magical system are there, they are reinvented or explained in a different manner to reflect the new paradigm of thinking. In modern times, we see this same conflict, except now its between high mythic and rational; and even now between rational and aperspectival.

In this manner, we equate modern Christianity and Judaism as opposed to or indifferent to astrology. But, our mistake is that we take our more modern perspectives and place them in an era when such divisions were not as strong. In this sense, theology develops, its not a static interpretation identifiable only by its supposed historic events, it evolves with the psychology/sociology of the time.

Quote:
I'm not out to disprove Christianity or Judaism or any other religion for that matter, only to show that we don't have to stay with one expression of it (mostly, a high-mythic expression). The traditions should be able to move into deeper insights instead of being distracted by supposed historical persons and events of a time long past.
-TC

I don't know that the persons and events are either supposed or distracting, unless one is wed to a fundamentalist viewpoint. For the rest, I quite agree with you. The tradition does change and should change, moving (we hope) into deeper insights.

It might interest you to know that this is a core teaching of the Reform Protestant tradition (at least in its more liberal forms). It comes from Calvin's doctrine of the Holy Spirit, whose illumination is essential to understanding scripture. The Reform tradition holds that over time, the Church is provided with deeper insights into the meaning of scripture that leads to a reformulation of the gospel to apply to the current context. It is considered a task of each generation to find a way to express the teaching in terms that are relevant to its own age. In fact, some of the most interesting work I have read recently are those wrestling with the insights of post-modernism as a theological challenge.

Not too long ago I was introduced to the work of an early modern analyst of civilization and culture as seen through its literature. His name was Giambattista Vico and in brief he thought of (Western) civilization as passing through three stages which he labelled "divine" "noble" and "common"--each with its characteristic literature, images, and political institutions. It is a very interesting concept, though probably over-simplistic, but there are a lot of ways the paradigm fits. In the late 20th century, Northrope Frye used the same basic framework as a lens for a literary analysis of the bible. It was written, for the most part in what Vico calls the "divine" age, and carries much of that literary style. The NT shows the inroads of the "noble" stage.

What intrigues me is how these paradigms impact on worldviews and the interpretation of earlier literature. Especially when the literature is deemed sacred and therefore cannot be simply dispensed with and forgotten.

Using this framework, it is instructive to note how the NT authors handled the OT--which is quite differently from the way even late OT authors dealt with older material. Then there are the Church Fathers and later the medieval scholastics who build on the NT example.

With the transition to the "common" phase of civilization (post-Enlightenment to the present) a whole new way of understanding scripture comes into effect. In the fundamentalist perspective, it becomes very important that the persons and events be historical and even scientific in their literal rendering. And as you say, this modern perspective imposed on texts written from a very different worldview distorts the meaning of the text. I have called it "anachronistic interpretation".
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  #138 (permalink)  
Old 5th April 2008, 07:02 AM
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I think the Church did itself a disservice when it didn't continue orders that pursued more of a Christian Mysticism, such as St. Teresa of Avila, a St. John of the Cross, or a Meister Eckhart. Maybe they do in Europe more so than in the U.S., I have to admit my ignorance on the scope of the modern day Contemplative Christians. I think its something Bishop Spong would like Christianity to move towards, and I know Father Thomas Keating is trying to resurrect such with his "centering prayer" techniques.

-TC
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Old 5th April 2008, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Clementsmith
I think the Church did itself a disservice when it didn't continue orders that pursued more of a Christian Mysticism, such as St. Teresa of Avila, a St. John of the Cross, or a Meister Eckhart. Maybe they do in Europe more so than in the U.S., I have to admit my ignorance on the scope of the modern day Contemplative Christians. I think its something Bishop Spong would like Christianity to move towards, and I know Father Thomas Keating is trying to resurrect such with his "centering prayer" techniques.

-TC

Unless one is speaking of an institution like the Roman Catholic church it is difficult these days to say anything about "the Church" that is wholly valid. The American Church (non-Catholic) is far different from the Church in Europe or even in Canada and Australia. Nearly half of Americans consider themselves "evangelical" with a considerable fraction of that being "fundamentalist". The equivalent group in Canada is only 8% evangelical with only a sprinkling of fundamentalists. I am not sure if fundamentalism exists in Europe at all. None of the prominent evangelicals there seem to have the hostility to science one sees in the US. In fact the chair of the Science Group of the International Panel on Climate Change back around 2000 is an British evangelical. I heard him speak once when he was in Toronto. So the American church is a bit of an anomaly as far as global Christianity is concerned. I wouldn't say "the Church" turned away from the mystics, but possibly the American church did. And that may say more about general American activism than about Christianity.

Along that line, I think you are right about the Europeans being more into contemplative Christianity. There are three contemporary movements I know of that have broad support here, but all originated in Europe. The Cursillo movement was originally Catholic, originating in Spain, but has crossed over into Protestant churches. Then there is the Taize movement which began in France as an ecumenical movement and the Iona communities of course, began with the revival of Iona as a social justice and retreat centre in the Church of Scotland. It has brought about a renewed focus on Celtic Christianity which is much more creation-centered than the Catholicism which later replaced it. Not as well known are the "Christian Buddhists" a la Thomas Merton. And then there is the whole field of feminist spirituality which has close ties with ecological spirituality.

lol, that reminds me. Last Sunday I preached on "Ecological Resurrection". Not about contemplation though. About acting on climate change.
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