Integral Spirituality by Ken Wilber

[Travis Clementsmith]

I thought about trying something new on the forum. Would you be interested in reading and discussing a book together? The book is Integral Spirituality by Ken Wilber and discusses the role of religion and spirituality in the post-modern world. The book can be purchased through Amazon for around $15 and you can get there via the 'Books' link at the top of the forum page or on the Amazon link at the bottom of it.

I thought I would give everyone two weeks to purchase the book who wanted to participate and then we can go through the book either section by section or chapter by chapter depending on how much discussion each section generates. Here is an outline of the book:

Introduction: The Integral Approach: An overview of Integral Theory highlighting quadrants, levels, lines, states and types of human consciousness. These are the basic tools of the theory.

1. Integral Methodological Pluralism: Yikes! That's a mouthful! This is basically how the theory charts at tleast 8 fundamental and apparently irreducible methodologies, injunctions, or paradigms for gaining reproducible knowledge and how they are integrated together. These 8 include phenomenology, structuralism, autopoiesis (i.e. cognitive science), empiricism(i.e. neurophysiology), social autopoiesis, systems theory, ethnomethodology, and hermeneutics. Don't be frightened by the unusual names, it'll be explained in much easier terms.

2. Stages of Consciousness: What are they?

3. States of Consciousness: What are they?

4. States and Stages: How do they interact?

5. Boomeritis Buddhism: A look at pathologies and disfunctions in consciousness development.

6. The Shadow and the Disowned Self: A look at pathologies in egoic development and why transcendental practices are not equiped to spot them.

7. A Miracle Called "We": A look at social structures and what they are and are not.

8. The World of the Terribly Obvious: A look at he science of consciousness

9. The Conveyor Belt: 50-70% of the world's population are Nazis! Shock statement? Of course, so what's he trying to draw our attention to. An interesting outline on the roots of terrorism and its relation to religion and what religion can do about it.

10. Integral Life Practice: How to pull it all together to supplement the practice you already have. Doesn't matter if you are a theist, deist, agnostic, or atheist. Suggestions on how to supplement your current path integrally.

Hope it sounds interesting, I think it could generate some very interesting conversations, especially its claim to introduce post-metaphysics. That's right can you actually save Spirit in a modern and post-modern sense? See if its plausible to you.

-TC

[Lightkeeper]

It sounds very interesting and I would like to participate in it.

[maggie]

Count me in.

Maggie

[Travis Clementsmith]

Just a reminder that a week from Monday we will begin the discussion on the book Integral Spirituality. The book is a quick read despite the depth of material and covers a wide variety of topics. So whether you like religion, philosophy, or simply like to understand the dynamics of consciousness interactions, it is a book well worth your while to check out. Hope to see you there.

-TC

[Aaron]

OK, I don't mean to jump the gun. I'm sure that you've got a certain order and angle that you would like to approach this discussion from but I just wanted to bring up a few things regarding KW's new color scheme for the Stages of Development.

http://www.holons-news.com/images/Altitudes_big.jpg

For one, I don't mind that he made some changes to the original SD color scheme since this model is intended to transcend and include that model. It does get confusing at times however, especially since he still uses Green, Orange, and a few other colors.

The main problem that I have with this model is with the 3rd tier. IMO this is where the model goes from bio/psycho/social straight into metaphysics. Also, I may be understanding it wrong but it seems as if he's confusing "States" with "Stages" here.

The other problem that I have with the model and Wilber's approach to these models in general is that he over hypes the "second tier" as if it's leaps and bounds above everything else in the "first tier". IMO second tier is important but not as important as he makes it out to be.

Other then that I think that the Stages of Development are wonderful and Wilber's done an excellent job of integrating the various different developmental models that have been floating around for the last half century or so.

[Travis Clementsmith]

Originally Posted by Aaron

OK, I don't mean to jump the gun. I'm sure that you've got a certain order and angle that you would like to approach this discussion from but I just wanted to bring up a few things regarding KW's new color scheme for the Stages of Development.

Geeze, some people!

Originally Posted by Aaron

For one, I don't mind that he made some changes to the original SD color scheme since this model is intended to transcend and include that model. It does get confusing at times however, especially since he still uses Green, Orange, and a few other colors.

Yes, his model is intended to recast the Self as the altitude for the theory in general and he decided to use the visible light spectrum (well mostly) as his standard. Since his new direction is meant to capture the multitude of perspectives, and since Spiral Dynamics doesn't do that, he modified his model thusly. It should be noted, however, even SD was redfined using the color scheme from the original Graves model.

Originally Posted by Aaron

The main problem that I have with this model is with the 3rd tier. IMO this is where the model goes from bio/psycho/social straight into metaphysics. Also, I may be understanding it wrong but it seems as if he's confusing "States" with "Stages" here.

We'll get more into this later, and I do intend to go slowly from the beginning so that those unfamiliar with Wilber's work can get up to speed. You have to understand this is not a revised Spiral Dynamics model (its kinda funny, because that is exactly the point of contention that led Cowan to split with Beck on the direction of SD!). Wilber's model is on perspectives. So, according to the theory, if you have not attained a third tier perspective, third tier will be metaphysics to you because you haven't attained the proper referant to be able to confirm it. It would be the same thing as saying that a magical-minded intellect would regard rational referants also as metaphysics, even as those of us at the rational level would say they are not. We say that because we have a referent. If you had two Taoist masters talking about the nature of the Tao, the Tao is an actual referent for them, it is not metaphysics. For those of us who have not attained such, the Tao would indeed still be metaphysics.

As for the states and stages, you have to remember that once a new level previously only experienced as a "state" becomes a permenant trait, it then becomes a stage of development. So, if third tier consciousness becomes a permenant trait (or stage), then the persons perspective almost always proceeds from that level. In other words, such a person would not have to meditate in order to attain that stage, it would be already present, just as the verbal stage is something you no longer have to "enter", it is already present in your consciousness. Such was not the case early in life as language had to be a stage entered into, that is, learned, until it became automatic.

Originally Posted by Aaron

The other problem that I have with the model and Wilber's approach to these models in general is that he over hypes the "second tier" as if it's leaps and bounds above everything else in the "first tier". IMO second tier is important but not as important as he makes it out to be.

Its hard to say, because you would actually have to have that level present in you to be able to tell the difference between that and say, a very advanced and healthy GREEN stage. I really don't know that I am at second tier myself. I can certainly take multiple perspectives, but I don't know that I see them in the very real sense as referents of that stage. In other words, I think I understand it, but I don't know it. Then again, it may not be something all that special. Or you might be very special and didn't find the transition to be that consequential!

Originally Posted by Aaron

Other then that I think that the Stages of Development are wonderful and Wilber's done an excellent job of integrating the various different developmental models that have been floating around for the last half century or so.

I think so as well. Hopefully as we go along we can flesh these out. Now, stop scaring the other people until we get started Monday!

-TC

[Travis Clementsmith]

Welcome to the Book Club discussion on Ken Wilber’s Integral Spirituality.



Most book club discussions usually focus on fiction, and thus it is important to have read the entire book when the discussion starts. Because Integral Spirituality is non-fiction and set up more like a text book, you may be able to stay just ahead of the discussion if you haven't finished quite yet (or want to rush out and get the book). We'll move as quickly as the pace of the discussion allows. Feel free to backtrack if you are getting in late or want to go back over something. There are numerous references in the book to other books and articles he has written. I have most of these, so if you want to ask something about those, I'll see what I can come up with.

To start, and to get a preliminary headcount, I have a questionnaire I hope you will respond to. If you join in late, please go ahead and submit your questionnaire when you join. Answers are completely voluntary and you do not have to give any you don't want:

Age/Age Range :
Gender:
West Coast/East Coast/In Between/Not In Your Bloody Country:
Religion/Philosophy:
Do you prefer fiction or non-fiction?:
How many books per year do you average?:


Have you read this author before?:
Have you finished the book yet; if not, where are you at?:
Do you like the writing style?:
Is the subject matter difficult to comprehend?:
Would you read more from this author?:

Feel free to fire off any questions you like, any time you like. For more of a rolling discussion, l"ll plan to be here from 4-6pm west coast time. I hope you enjoy!

-Travis

[Travis Clementsmith]

Introduction: The Integral Approach

Often when theories of this nature are proposed, one of the first demands by inquirers is "How do you define ________?" This is the goal of the Introduction. Wilber's Integral Theory started in 1977 with his book Spectrums of Consciousness and has evolved through five major stages detailed through twenty books, the latest of which we are now reviewing. In fact, this book really represents the first cogent theory of his Stage V refinement. As such, there are a lot of terms and since I have read most of his works, I pushed through these rather quickly. I realize that some (or most) of you may be reading Wilber for the first time, so let's begin the discussion making sure the terms are well understood.

Were there any definitions that were either not well defined or difficult to comprehend for you?

What concepts were new to you that you liked?

What concepts did you not like?

What concepts were you already aware of but had not considered in the same way as before?

Did the terms and proposal bog you down or pique your interest for the chapters ahead?

Other comments/questions?

[Travis Clementsmith]

Here are some links to a couple of the charts used in the introduction. I'm not as handy as Aaron is at pasting images, perhaps he can help us out with that as the discussion progresses.

The Quadrants (Figure 4 in the book)

http://wilber.shambhala.com/images/m...adrants-lg.gif

The Quadrants focused on humans (Figure 5 in the book)

http://wilber.shambhala.com/images/m...-humans-lg.gif

[Aaron]

Hi Travis. I still disagree regarding the 3rd tier but I'll wait until that discussion comes back up before I elaborate.

Age/Age Range : 35
Gender: Male
West Coast/East Coast/In Between/Not In Your Bloody Country: East Coast
Religion/Philosophy: Deist/Panendeist/Agnostic
Do you prefer fiction or non-fiction?: non-fiction
How many books per year do you average?: 2

Have you read this author before?: Yep
Have you finished the book yet; if not, where are you at?: Nope, I'm all over the place which is a bad habit that I have.
Do you like the writing style?: Yes
Is the subject matter difficult to comprehend?: Nope
Would you read more from this author?: Sure

So Travis, are you going to answer these questions?