Yes, Tony! I see the same : )

The belief in something creates the experience. Even though in Truth nothing but perfection exists.....things can be experienced completely as "real" through the belief in them.

The only experience that is real...is the one we all have (can have) in common....

__________________
May your awareness be perfection

The answer is this



There is only ONE dreamer in the dream

We are ONE MIND believing it is 6 billion

I have said many times before we are all the same

You are amazing Allen. Truly.
I have been victimized as a young person and that trauma almost destroyed me.
But I realized one day that if I continued to carry around a victim consciousness I would never be able to have any self esteem or self worth or hope at all.
You have no idea.
You just assume that I am talking off my high horse from my ivory tower somewhere.
Jesus, man.
Truly clueless.
My comment has to do with how a victim thinks about themselves after the fact.
The idea is to move on and get over it, not steep in the poor me I was victimized and am a victim for the rest of my life.
I know people like that and they are pitiful.



This above is my opinion which I have concluded after decades of tons of reading and thinking and observing, just like you do.
So you don't agree.
Big f*cking deal.
I can't prove it.
But that gives you no right to be so crass and flip.

Incorrect. I was raped -- up the ass! -- at 7 years old by my stepfather. I was nearly killed twice. I have posted this before (not the rape part) on this site. I have no idea? Yes, actually, I do.
I understand that. I do not feel victimized. I am a whole, healthy person, and I got there on my own.


But, oh, may I remind you of something you've completely overlooked. Many, many, many of the "victims" that we're talking about don't "feel victimized" at all. They're DEAD. They "got over it," clever them. That's a great out from victimhood, isn't it? Here's hoping their loved ones agree, and don't feel victimized, either.

But look back over this thread. Read every post carefully. Look and see if you can find just one single expression of REGRET that any of the things that victimize people have happened, or will continue to happen.

There is no such expression here.

And as long as there is no such expression here, that in itself, like sending the rapist back out on the street to do it again, puts other in danger of the same thing.

The issue is not whether people get over it, or learn to think of themselves as not a victim.

The issue is -- which everyone is ignoring like there's no tomorrow -- is that it would have been much better if the victimization, the pain, the degradation had not happened. And the issue is even more that it would be even better if it doesn't happen again.

And we poor, stupid humans will never get there, because all we're doing is looking for nice religious ways to explain it all away.

Like I said, go back and read every post. Find the expression of regret that is not in one of my posts.
I have another idea. Don't just try to get over crap. Fix it. Care enough about the here, the now, the people who exist around you who are being victimized every day. Writing paeans to "love" and ACIM and forgiveness ain't never going to do that. Unconditional, endless forgiveness is the single way to guarantee that the perpetrators have free rein to do it again.

I call myself "humanist" because I'm not just on this earth waiting to be dead and something else. I'm human, and I owe, as part of the price of my humanity, some concern for the rest of them.

Yeah, sure, I hope they all get past the pain that they've received. No, I don't think remaining a helpless victim forever is healthy. BUT YOU CAN'T STOP THERE. It's not enough. Your humanity demands better.

And remember, your words were very simple. If somebody doesn't think they're a victim, then they are not. And the implication, although you never say it, is that THEY NEVER WERE.

I find that, as I said earlier and I do not retract now, repulsive.

If you think I was crass and flip, and that this is not big f*cking deal, I would remind you just one more time -- go back and read all the posts in this thread, and find the one's that actually express -- in words -- some real concern and regret for the horrible things that happen to people.

Those words were mine.

__________________
evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.

EH ...for gosh sakes...take a breath...scream at the screen ...that you dont have to take a breath ....i am going to bet that most here have horror stories that would curl anyones hair...no matter what another humans life appears to be..no matter there words...no matter there place ....I dont know anyone that has not been to hell and back..nor do i know anyone that past appearance has what they look like they might..or who is who they sound to be...or does everything they say they do.....humans are so busy trying to prove there self...to fit in...to be..what ever that is.....from my life experience what your doing is truly the best thing to do...get it out of your system.....I so dont hear what you do in these posts.....and it confirms to me that we hear at each moment what is from our experience.....I dont know how to do this with words.....my heart goes out to you.....I have been where you are with the anger..the demand to make a wrong right..the fight to fix the problems ...the hurt from seeing the ugly...then i in steps found peace...is it constant does it let me stop feeling or worrying ...not at all...it is just different...i truly place myself in each human life that has damaged myself and try so try to see where they came from why they ended up as they did ...what hurt them so bad they could harm others...and when you track those history's...the answer more often than not becomes...why would they not...it seems there is the way revengeful and bitter from miss treatment in life...then there is the over caring and giving to a fault sorta.....i really do love those who have harmed me in my life...and if that makes me sick...well then i guess you can call me sick...because my heart goes out to them...for there sickness i fear is way worse then mine that they could or would do harm as many do ...as for those who do not live through it...i fear not for them but there loved ones who miss them...i speak from a personal experience with death on two occasions...and if it was a blip in my life and so not able to be real...i am taking my chances..why...because i see the lost souls that stay in the bitter world they can not come to grips with...and because we can not fix all things..only daily work towards fixing them...locking people up will not fix this...and i know it seems to sicken you to hear this...but loving them will get us farther then locking everyone up...i am not a total idiot..i understand some must be locked up...and that is why i am not understanding fully some of your posting yet i do...but the posters here were speaking on subjects..not all in detail of individual cases most often..a generalizing...would you feel better if we were to share that we took someone who had caused us great harm and we beat there head to the ground and did not get caught...would you cheer that.....perhaps you say no...that it would be best to take them to court...i am rambling again...often i dont know why...tonight i do..it is because when a brother hurts it hurts us all...i feel it with every bit of my existence...all i can do is share this post...allow you to be...and trust it is as it should be...if there was anyway possible for you to feel the pain i feel for you...for you to clearly understand you are not alone in your pain...that would lead back to the mumbo jumbo...i feel from your posts that is what you hear...I am guessing you have a idea of how you think people should respond and what is normal and not....and this is all cracking your world to think the posts are as they are....and all i can do is repeat it ...we all seem to hear different things in these posts and respond from our emotional side of our journey in life....i really wish there were something i could say or do....i really do................................................ .................................................. ...................

Sendy, you are missing my point completely. Please read my last post again.

I told you, I am whole and healthy. I bear no grudges whatever, and I have understood for many years that those who did to me were simply unable to help themselves, and so suffered as much in their own way. I am not angry about anything that happened to me.

I am angry because, even though I understand the need for the sake of one's own mental health not to carry victimhood around forever, that there are still victims, and us sitting here telling them they "shouldn't feel that way" is impossibly cruel.

I am angry because everybody's talking about how to stop feeling hurt, and I'm talking about our shared responsibility to other humans to look for ways to stop the hurt beforehand.

Think about it this way. There's a kid about to be beaten up in the schoolyard, and you have the power to stop it. Do you stop it, or do you tell the bullies to "go ahead," and then tell the kid with the broken bones afterward that he shouldn't feel victimized?

Jesus Christ told Peter to "feed my sheep." He didn't tell Peter to go tell the sheep they weren't hungry.

__________________
evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.

Yes, I agree E.H. Even from a spiritual perspective...where is compassion? I know in truth that we are spirit and spirit is perfect and that nothing happened to our spirit, but if someone brings an illness or problem to my attention, I don't say you are illusioning it. The expereince is "real.

__________________
May your awareness be perfection

EH

I do understand exactly what you are saying but please try and get where i am coming from here

I am not sayignto the victims "get over it" or its an illusion etc
But I am also not re enforcing them being victims

I am simply taking the idea of victim and applying the fact that

1) They are so much more than the percieved victim



It is indeed very real to those / us that expereince these situations - I have had my share much as you have and much of my "learning" has come through my past expereinces and moreso my wife

She began Self harming in 1999 and was given 3 months max
During that time we both learnt that she was not a victim at all - That being a victim is the absolute worst place
What she actually wanted was to be looked upon as "normal" and not as a victim

What has healed her has been seeing past the victim to her "Truth"

This was done with Love and with Compassion but it was not with a focus on the poor victim
It was achieved by knowing her TRUTH

In a nutshell this is what I am saying happens - We look upon a victim and not upon the potential - even if you discount the "spiritual" side it makes sense - well i think so


It is not compasionless to look upon them knowing they are much more is it ?
Treat a victim as a victim and its sure they will be forever a VICTIM


Compassion isnt much good if it re enforces the apparant victims expereince is it

We have to focus on the Cause and not the effect - yet our judgement is always aimed at the effect


For instance my wifes illness was created by her parents abuse of her
It was easy for me to condemn them because I focused on the effect - my wifes illness

Yet when i looked at the cause I found my wifes parents had been abused - whipped leaving deep scars and much more etc etc

It was a huge pattern of the past sowing its seed on and on

What was done to heal this was not condemnation or to look upon victims
It was to look at NOW and leave the past where it belongs
It was to focus on all the positives in all involved

What has blossomed from that is LOVE of all

A new beginning which was born from forgivness

Because all involved made mistakes learnt from the past

Attack will never ever heal anything and being a victim makes a place of anger - Usually aimed at self which is insane as the victim becomes the victims victim

So what i am saying is that if i come across a victim I will look upon them as complete and whole
I will hold there hands and listen and help
But I will know the truth in them and I will help them to find that because that is freedom - That is Life

I have seen my wife in the darkest place and I know that what brought her from that was to be looked upon as so much more

No one is a victim because that cannot heal - ever

So then (Allen) why are you so angry then?
Are you looking for justice/retribution in and by society?
Good luck with that.
Too much corruption in high and low places.
Just try to change that.
Lots of coffins filled by people who take that on.

I help people when I can.
Several occasions this cost me dearly, but I have no regrets and would do it again.
I don't stand by and watch people being abused/victimized.
I have no...zero tolerance for that.
My comment has to do with healing one's self after the fact, which is most times the best anyone can do.
Unless you are counseling a revenge thing, which I don't condone.
Blood begets more blood ad infinitum, like the Sicilian way.
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth will leave us all blind and needing dentures.
You want to discuss how to stop the tragedies of life from happening in the first place, then start another thread.

What was wrong with this thread? You perhaps should read the opening post again...
Let me first assure you that the person who is killed in the scenario given is not whining. They got over it, all right. They're dead.

Second, the question did not refer to anybody's healing themselves of "victimhood" after the fact. The question clearly states that "we chose our situations and there is no such thing as a victim." I can't read that any other way than that the person who was killed chose to have themselves killed. The rape victim chose it (oh, yeah, defense lawyers just love the "she dressed provocatively" defense). This goes along with that infuriating idealist fantasy that so many have here that there's nothing real, that we create everything that exists. Pure rubbish, filled with contradictions which those who espouse the view try desperately never to see.

Those are the points that I was answering.
Justice is not necessarily a bad thing, whether you approve of it or not, although I'm not always sure what it means.

But you seem to be saying that we ought not to try to change things, because it's dangerous? Well, perhaps, but then we all lose -- permanently. There have been brave people throughout history who have stood up to the "corruption in high and low places," and often paid for it with their lives. But they've advanced the cause of freedom of individual choice, the ability for people like you and I to live as we choose and say what we like without fear of being consigned to the flames or guillotine.
I got your point. I understood it from the beginning. But you have consistently missed mine, and you continue to do so. Go back through everything I've written and find where I (an absolute opponent of the death penalty, by the way) have counseled revenge. You won't find it -- not on this site, not on any other site where I've written.

So back to your opening. What's making me so angry? Your comment, after a claim that a murder victim isn't a victim as reported by Lightkeeper, that "As for victims, you are if you think you are. If you think you are not, then you are not. Why is that so hard to figure out." You were answering a post of mine when you said that, so I took it as directed at me.

Here's something to understand. A person who was victimized is a victim. They may be a person who has gotten past the soul-destroying anger that often goes with that, they may be a victim who has offered forgiveness, but they are still a victim. But I return to the opening question, which had to do with a person murdered. Oh, yes, they are past hte soul-destroying anger, by virtue of being dead. That didn't seem to concern you, and your remark seems, in that regard, extremely callous and uncaring.

We do not grow spiritually through callousness and lack of care.

__________________
evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.