No pain ever again

modus_tollens · #1 (**permalink**) 27th December 2007, 07:09 PM

Hypothetical.

You have the option to never again feel any pain. However, in order to do that, you must also never again feel any pleasure.

Would you give up the pleasure in exchange for no pain ever again?

My answer to this is cheating, I think. I would....explanation to follow in a while....

Lightkeeper · #2 (**permalink**) 27th December 2007, 07:23 PM

Wouldn't no pleasure be pain?

vivamis123 · #3 (**permalink**) 27th December 2007, 07:42 PM

I'd say No. Now if you had asked me to give up pleasure&pain for peace, unconditional love and/or Joy= harmony/perfection I would say Yes!

modus_tollens · #4 (**permalink**) 27th December 2007, 10:13 PM

I definitely would make that trade...but, as I said, I think my rationale is kind of cheating...

evangelicalhumanist · #5 (**permalink**) 28th December 2007, 05:05 PM

No, absolutely not. The pure joy that I get from the gift of love from my partner comes at the risk of big-time pain on losing it, either to death or some other unfortunate reality. I would not, to put aside the danger of that pain, risk the loss of that pleasure.

modus_tollens · #6 (**permalink**) 28th December 2007, 10:37 PM

This is why I'm afraid of death. Not being a big time Christian, I don't believe in heaven. Not being a big time nihilist, I believe in something. But I think in death there is neither pain nor pleasure; so I was afraid for that reason. I may have found a way to not be afraid...I'll explain why I would make the trade after a while has past... It's kinda helping me embrace the notion of dying, while not being particularly eager for it...

evangelicalhumanist · #7 (**permalink**) 29th December 2007, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by modus_tollens

This is why I'm afraid of death. Not being a big time Christian, I don't believe in heaven. Not being a big time nihilist, I believe in something. But I think in death there is neither pain nor pleasure; so I was afraid for that reason. I may have found a way to not be afraid...I'll explain why I would make the trade after a while has past... It's kinda helping me embrace the notion of dying, while not being particularly eager for it...

Thank you for your wonderfully honest answer. I look forward to your continued thoughts on the subject.

I think each of us is, at some level, afraid of death. Epicurus's old argument sounds good, but I don't think it helps most of us. ("If I am, death is not. If death is, I am not. Therefore, why fear death?")

Did you ever read James Boswell's account of his last meeting with the dying David Hume? The whole thing may be read here, but a most important bit of the piece is, "I asked him if the thought of annihilation never gave him any uneasiness. He said not the least; no more than the thought that he had not been, as Lucretius observes." This is, I think, to the same point. But one must assume, of course, that even the great Hume had some trepidation -- or if nothing of that, then at least some regret at the leaving of life.

I don't know that I am so afraid of the state of death, but I easily concede that I am not comfortable with thinking of the process of achieving that state, whatever it might be. Heart attack and stroke, hit by a bus, slain by a jealous lover -- none wonderfully appealing. Dying in my sleep might be okay, but not many of us get to do that, so I'm told.

I have seen many people die, because so many of my friends were the victims of AIDS in the 1990s. I was with several of them right up until the end, and in fact, the transition from life to death was quite subtle, almost unnoticeable. That might not be so bad, really, but I suppose that experiencing it cannot be the same as observing it.

Still, I do often get sad when I think about leaving life, my lover and how he will carry on without me. That's regret more than fear.

But as Hume, I do not believe in any persistence of "me" after the death of my body. Boswell on Hume again:

Quote:

I had a strong curiosity to be satisfied if he persisted in disbelieving a future state even when he had death before his eyes. I was persuaded from what he now said, and from his manner of saying it, that he did persist. I asked him if it was not possible that there might be a future state. He answered it was possible that a piece of coal put upon the fire would not burn; and he added that it was a most unreasonable fancy that we should exist for ever.

Lightkeeper · #8 (**permalink**) 29th December 2007, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evangelicalhumanist

Thank you for your wonderfully honest answer. I look forward to your continued thoughts on the subject.

I think each of us is, at some level, afraid of death. Epicurus's old argument sounds good, but I don't think it helps most of us. ("If I am, death is not. If death is, I am not. Therefore, why fear death?")

Did you ever read James Boswell's account of his last meeting with the dying David Hume? The whole thing may be read here, but a most important bit of the piece is, "I asked him if the thought of annihilation never gave him any uneasiness. He said not the least; no more than the thought that he had not been, as Lucretius observes." This is, I think, to the same point. But one must assume, of course, that even the great Hume had some trepidation -- or if nothing of that, then at least some regret at the leaving of life.

I don't know that I am so afraid of the state of death, but I easily concede that I am not comfortable with thinking of the process of achieving that state, whatever it might be. Heart attack and stroke, hit by a bus, slain by a jealous lover -- none wonderfully appealing. Dying in my sleep might be okay, but not many of us get to do that, so I'm told.

I have seen many people die, because so many of my friends were the victims of AIDS in the 1990s. I was with several of them right up until the end, and in fact, the transition from life to death was quite subtle, almost unnoticeable. That might not be so bad, really, but I suppose that experiencing it cannot be the same as observing it.

Still, I do often get sad when I think about leaving life, my lover and how he will carry on without me. That's regret more than fear.

But as Hume, I do not believe in any persistence of "me" after the death of my body. Boswell on Hume again:

Wonderful post, EH. Very well said!!!

Tonyamendola · #9 (**permalink**) 9th January 2008, 12:24 AM

I am assuming we are talking about giving up of bodily pleasure and pain

Love imho is expereinced truely in a spiritual place beyond the body
The body may react to the pleasure of the emotion of Love but it is not pain or pleasure expereinced in the body

It is a natural state of being beyond body senses

In this state bodily pleasure becomes irrlevant - akin to the idea of giving up nothing for everything

So YES

modus_tollens · #10 (**permalink**) 9th January 2008, 01:34 AM

Actually, I meant all forms of pain and pleasure.

Would you give you pleasure to have no pain?

I think at some point I might have to make this choice.... maaaybe....

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