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Nazarenes and Christianity
excerpt from Rejection of Pascal's Wager
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[belief is NOT the same as TRUTH] Last edited by RHEMtron : 19th July 2007 at 04:43 PM. |
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It's fascinating. How about your thoughts on the Essenes. My understanding is Joseph and Mary were Essenes and that Jesus was raised among them and according to their teachings.
Also, FYI, The Order of Nazorean Essenes and their current activity may be found at: http://essenes.net/new/subintro.html
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Only Love Prevails, Don |
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This is what I was saying.
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This is what I was saying, no where in bible you will find a word "Christian" used for the followers of Bible and Jesus. Qur'an mentions the followers of Islam as "muslims" so Bible should also mention the name of the "Christians" as the followers of the bible. |
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Actually, you do. In Acts 11:25 The article is in error to say this term was used to describe the followers of Paul, though. For at this time, Paul was still using his Jewish name Saul and was subordinate to Barnabas as the leader of the church at Antioch. It was not until later that Paul became a principal leader of the church. It is also to be noted that the church did not call itself "Christian". This was a name given them by outsiders. The early believers referred to their belief as "the Way" (Acts 24:14). Like "Christian" the term "Nazarene" probably came from outsiders, not from the believers themselves. These skeptical articles often make me laugh. This one begins by saying "It would probably come as a shock to most Christians today that the original followers of Jesus were never called Christians." and then goes on to quote the passage in Acts where it says "It was in Antioch the disciples were first called 'Christians'". So why would it be a shock to learn what is plainly stated in our own scriptures? |
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Since there is so much here, I'm going to keep my comments very brief. Much of the article I agree with, but I'm mainly just going to focus in on that which is questionable. BTW, the two most common terms for this group were "the Way" and the "Followers of the Nazarene" (not just "Nazarines"). Quote:
Not likely to be true. The term "Christian" was a name that was given to the movement by outsiders, and most scholars that I'm familiar with think it was a derogatory name that was eventually adopted to the movement sometime in the 2nd century. Quote:
One requirement of a nazir is the total avoidance of alcohol. If Jesus turned water into wine as alleged in the gospels at Cana, this would indicate he was not a nazir. Also, it appears that Jesus had taken on a liberal Pharisee approach that considered the letter of the Law to be less important than the direction of the Law, which is something a nazir would never agree with. Quote:
James' connection between the Ebionites and "the Way" is too difficult to call with any certainty of being correct. There's no doubt that James is having trouble with the rather loose interpretation of the Law, which would also be evidenced by Peter's actions btw, but there's the possibility (and I think the probability) that James eventually came around to that more liberal interpretation since he eventually becomes recognized as the leader of the apostolic group (not the Ebionites). However, I will not bet my house on this. Quote:
The scenario above is highly unlikely. Even though there is some dispute occurring over the issue of the Law, the fact that Paul had at least three conferences that we know of with the apostles would seem totally absurd if he's an outsider. Why would they meet with Paul and discuss anything with him if he was not somehow a part of them? Why are Paul's books in such wide circulation in the early church which is even attested to in at least one of the epistles? Why isn't there a single source that indicates that Paul is to be ignored and avoided? Quote:
Jesus was also sharply questioned by many of the Pharisee leaders as well, and it appears that the main issue is dealing with the Law and how Jesus perceives it, especially the "oral law" and the "building a wall around the Torah" that most mainline Pharisees believed in. Also, the gospels also mention about Jesus at one point, and the apostles later, being kicked out of synagogues, which were Pharisee congregations that Sadducees generally avoided. Quote:
We know very little about the Ebionites, but what we do know is that they were reluctant to take the liberal approach to the Law. And there are aspects of Jesus' teachings, if recorded accurately, that do violate at least the letter of the Law. Quote:
Actually we do not know if they survived much beyond the beginning of the 2nd century. Quote:
I'd love the author to provide a single source whereas Paul is specifically mentioned as a "deceiver" or words to that effect. Quote:
This makes no sense whatsoever for reasons previously mentioned, plus some others. The author is simply playing the "we/they" game and using Paul as a scapegoat for the "they". And what is most important is that the apostles were not involved with the Ebionites with the possible exception of James. Sorry to be so brief, but we can talk about any one or more of what is being discussed here in more detail. The author's positions here on the church versus the Ebionites is quite shallow and highly overblown by all indications. Essentially, it's just another conspiracy theory. BTW, just to mention that I am not a Christian.
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"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge."-- Einstein |
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Thanks, Metis. That a wonderful assessment from a non-emotional position.
I think there is also a very common assumption going on that few ever seem to question, which is that people are assuming James held exactly the same views and taught the same things as Jesus. Even a cursory study of history shows that family members and descendants of leaders quite often do not handle things the same way. Indeed, we do not need to look to leaders and statesmen and kings to see this. We have only to look at corporate successions, people we know, etc. to see that siblings often seek to distinguish themselves as individuals, as do children from their parents. We can see a rather clear example of this today in the Bush family. Bush Sr and and his son seldom appear together, and the two have displayed very different military styles and tactics. Is it possible that James might have spent some of his life espousing personal and religious views that Jesus might not have shared? I think so. He comes across as a bit less liberal to me from what we know of him, but yes, he might have changed his mind. I have a sister. We are quite close. We belong to the same general religious and political classifications, and read most of the same books, but I think if I asked her to replace me as Mirage, you would all notice immediately that the poster was not me. We have different styles, different viewpoints, and different emphases. For starters, she is much more cogent! James was not Jesus. None of those left behind were Jesus. There's a very good chance I think that in the vacuum left by the execution of Jesus, the Way may have done quite a bit of evolving in a relatively short time. It has always puzzled me that most people (Spong excepted) do not ever seem to wonder whether the death of Jesus itself might have changed some of their views. Surely it was a painful and cathartic experience, one would assume. And this is not to say that they did not continue to love and admire Jesus, but their physical, emotional, and spiritual needs might have shifted during the almost inevitable soul searching which follows the violent death of any leader as those left behind try to pick up the pieces. In American history, you can see a lot of interesting things occurred after the assassinations of both Lincoln and Kennedy. There was a great deal of grief and glamorization, and there were also a lot of things done in the names of the dead which it is impossible to know whether they would have liked. Often when a person dies, the rewriting starts at the funeral. At my father's funeral I was actually informed by several distraught and grieving people that he would have hated it, but we did exactly what his detailed written instructions requested. We cannot know how detailed any instructions Jesus left might have been, nor whether or not they were followed. Sometimes families do not follow such requests, that happens too. There is no way we will ever know what Jesus wanted James to do.
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