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Judaism 2nd October 2010, 03:40 PM

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Originally Posted by bob_chasm View Post
Paul in the NT suggests that the Northern Arabs were Ishmaelites. Mamonides suggests that Muhammad p was an Ishmaelite. The Northern Arab (Mudhari/ Adnani Tribes) consider themselves Ishmaelites. So the natural assumption was that since Muhammad p considered himself a descendant of Abraham, so he too was an Ishmaelite. After all, the only other type of Arabs were those who were not considered descendants of Abraham, but the children of distantly related, Ham.

Fast fwd to 2010 and DNA testing reveals that indeed the Ishmaelite tribes are quite closely related to the Cohanim, just as everyone had suspected. The Ishmaelite marker J1c3d1, was just one away from the Cohanim marker J1c3d. In addition a distantly related marker E1b1b has also been discovered in Yemen, Sudan, Ethiopia, Egypt Jordan etc, which could be Ham. So which haplogroup did Muhammad's clan belong to? As geneticists tested the Hashimites (clan of Muhammad p) they realized Hashimites belong to neither J1c3d1 like the Ishmaelites nor E1b1b like the distantly related Hamites. The Hashimites belong to haplogroup J1c3d like the Cohanim. This is leading genetic geneologists to conclude that the prophet p was perhaps not as closely related to the descendants of Ismail as he was to the largest group of closely related people in the Cohanim population.

Hope that clears up some of what I was saying.


regards,

bob

Not really if we check Genesis as far as that matter is concern. It does not matter how descendant Ishmael was of Abraham, God did bless him with wealth, but he had to leave. Why? Because "But My Covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear to you at this set time in the next year."
(Gen. 17:20.21) It means that the descendance of Ismael from Abraham would mean nothing in terms of Ishmael integregrating the Gentile world. And it does not matter how many sons Abraham had wiht any other women, Isaac was always considered the only son, the one Abraham loved. (Gen. 22:2) It means that for the purpose of being the seed of Abraham, Isaac, whom the Jewish People derived from was to be considered the son of the promise.

Ben:

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2nd October 2010, 05:39 PM

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Originally Posted by Ben Masada View Post
Not really if we check Genesis as far as that matter is concern. It does not matter how descendant Ishmael was of Abraham, God did bless him with wealth, but he had to leave. Why? Because "But My Covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear to you at this set time in the next year."

(Gen. 17:20.21) It means that the descendance of Ismael from Abraham would mean nothing in terms of Ishmael integregrating the Gentile world. And it does not matter how many sons Abraham had wiht any other womer, Isaac was always considered the only son, the one Abraham loved. (Gen. 22:2) It means that for the purpose of being the seed of Abraham, Isaac, whom the Jewish People derived from was to be considered the son of the promise.

Ben:


Are you even reading my posts?


Here, it is in just two lines, so you dont have to read too much:

As geneticists tested the Hashimites (clan of Muhammad p) they realized Hashimites belong to neither J1c3 of the Ishmaelites nor E1b1b of the distantly related Hamites. The Hashimites it turns out, belong to haplogroup J1c3d like the Cohanim.



I belong to the Y DNA haplogroup J, subclade J2a4*. Descendants of J form a majority in Arab, Samaritan and Jewish Cohen populations.

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Quraysh - 4th October 2010, 12:55 AM

To sum it up Ben, geneticists have figured out that the Quraysh clan descends from a single man who lived about 1,900 to 2,100 years ago. This is odd because it goes back to a single man who lived in the days of Jesus not Abraham. In other words, this is a relatively new tribe, created around the time that the Jerusalem Temple was destroyed. As such, it doesn't have a long history, going back to the days of Ishmael, the son Abraham! In addition, we find that this ancestral man of the Quraysh who lived in the days of Jesus was genetically identical to the Cohanim of today. This is odd because, if this ancestral man was an Ishmaelite, he and the Cohanim would have had a couple of thousand years to develop several subclade markers separating them from each other. However, no such markers have been discovered. So you may not have heard about this before, but I promise you, you will hear a lot more of it in the future and now you know why.

regards,

bob


I belong to the Y DNA haplogroup J, subclade J2a4*. Descendants of J form a majority in Arab, Samaritan and Jewish Cohen populations.

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Judaism 4th October 2010, 11:11 PM

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Originally Posted by bob_chasm View Post


Are you even reading my posts?


Here, it is in just two lines, so you dont have to read too much:

As geneticists tested the Hashimites (clan of Muhammad p) they realized Hashimites belong to neither J1c3 of the Ishmaelites nor E1b1b of the distantly related Hamites. The Hashimites it turns out, belong to haplogroup J1c3d like the Cohanim.


Yes, I am reading your posts, and I am well aware of the wish-thinking of many a Gentile to claim racial connection to this or that Jewish clan. Have you ever asked the Mormons where they originally come from? They claim that they descend from the Tribe of Benjamin and suscceeded to escape from Jerusalem after they were threatened to extinction by the other Tribes because of the rape of a certain Levite's wife. Then, they crossed the Mediterranean Sea, and farther through the Gibraltah Archipelago, then across the Atlantic unto America.

That's a paranoid attitude present in many Gentiles that think it much more romantic to establish a virtual connection with Israel, which by doing so, they will eliminate the necessity to convert to Judaism. It doesn't help because the moratorium lasted only 100 years between the Assyrian removal of the Ten Tribes forever and the taken over of Judah into exile for 70 years. Today, to belong to the Jewish People, one must convert according to Isaiah 56:1-8. And this has been so since the Jews returned from Babylon, thanks to Ezra and Nehemiah.

Ben:

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Judaism 4th October 2010, 11:25 PM

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Originally Posted by bob_chasm View Post
To sum it up Ben, geneticists have figured out that the Quraysh clan descends from a single man who lived about 1,900 to 2,100 years ago. This is odd because it goes back to a single man who lived in the days of Jesus not Abraham. In other words, this is a relatively new tribe, created around the time that the Jerusalem Temple was destroyed. As such, it doesn't have a long history, going back to the days of Ishmael, the son Abraham! In addition, we find that this ancestral man of the Quraysh who lived in the days of Jesus was genetically identical to the Cohanim of today. This is odd because, if this ancestral man was an Ishmaelite, he and the Cohanim would have had a couple of thousand years to develop several subclade markers separating them from each other. However, no such markers have been discovered. So you may not have heard about this before, but I promise you, you will hear a lot more of it in the future and now you know why.

regards,

bob

Nice try Bob! Did you know that the acceptance of "Ethiopian Jews" in Israel is purely political? Something like the Vietnamese Boat which Israel saved by opening its ports to them. Many have converted, many have not. The Ethiopians have been allowed to stay undisturbed and practice their own rites, notwithstanding the similarity, but if they want to marry according to the traditional way or mismarry with a real Jew, they have to undergo conversion.

Ben:

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5th October 2010, 01:40 AM

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Originally Posted by Ben Masada View Post
Have you ever asked the Mormons where they originally come from? ...

Did you know that the acceptance of "Ethiopian Jews" in Israel is purely political? Something like the Vietnamese Boat which Israel saved by opening its ports to them. Many have converted, many have not. The Ethiopians have been allowed to stay undisturbed and practice their own rites, notwithstanding the similiraty, but if they want to marry according to the traditional way or mismarry with a real Jew, they have to undergo conversion. ...

Ben:
DNA Evidence on the Ethiopians and Native Americans does not support their claim of descent from Israelites, because neither of these groups has descendants belonging to haplogroup J:

Ethiopian Jews:

"DNA samples from Beta Israel/Falasha Jews and Ethiopians were studied with the Y-Chromosome-specific DNA probe p49a to screen for TapI restriction polymorphism and haplotypes. Two haplotypes (V and XI) are the most widespread in Beta Israel and Ethiopians, representing about 70% of the total number of haplotypes in Ethiopia. Because the Jewish Haplotypes VII and VIII are not represented in the Falasha population, we conclude that these people descended from ancient inhabitants of Ethiopia who converted to Judaism." -DNA & tradition: the genetic link to the ancient Hebrews By Yaakov Kleiman, p.83


DNA & tradition: the genetic link to ... - Google Books

_____________________________________

Mormon belief about Native American descent from Israelites:



"In the 1990s, DNA studies gave Mormon detractors further ammunition and new allies such as Simon G. Southerton, a molecular biologist and former bishop in the church. Southerton, a senior research scientist with the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization in Australia, said genetic research allowed him to test his religious views against his scientific training.

Genetic testing of Jews throughout the world had already shown that they shared common strains of DNA from the Middle East. Southerton examined studies of DNA lineages among Polynesians and indigenous peoples in North, Central and South America. One mapped maternal DNA lines from 7,300 Native Americans from 175 tribes. Southerton found no trace of Middle Eastern DNA in the genetic strands of today’s American Indians and Pacific Islanders."

DNA tests contradict Mormon scripture. The church says the studies are being twisted to attack its beliefs. Dialogue Ireland

_______________________________

Ben, I suggest you try to learn a little bit about how the field of microbiology can determine ancestry thru Y DNA testing. These are like paternity tests, very precise. There is no guess work involved with them. They provide very specific information.


I belong to the Y DNA haplogroup J, subclade J2a4*. Descendants of J form a majority in Arab, Samaritan and Jewish Cohen populations.

Last edited by bob_chasm; 5th October 2010 at 03:20 AM.
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Arab DNA - 5th October 2010, 02:09 AM

In the Ethiopian Falasha & Native Americans, it was discovered that Haplotype VII and VIII (now known as Haplogroup J) were missing, that are common among Jews. However, it is not missing in Arabs. For example,

Haplotype VIII of the Y chromosome is the ancestra... [Hum Biol. 1996] - PubMed result


Mary Ann Liebert, Inc. - Genetic Testing - 7(1):67

Ben,

I am glad that you have found happiness in the law of Moses with the tribe of Judah. However, I too, feel happily alligned with the law thru the one, I consider a descendant of High Priest Onias IV, the one who was the rightful heir to the position of high priest in the Jerusalem Temple and a 'father to son' descendant of high priests going back to Zadok in the days of King Solomon and King David, appointed as guardians of the law. History records Onias' desire to fulfill prophecies of Isaiah 19. He even constructed a Temple in Egypt (The Oneion) to make them come true. The DNA evidence suggests Muhammad's tribe was founded by someone who was genetically identical to the Cohanim, at a time when Onias and his descendants were abandoned by the Jews and driven out by the Romans. Combine this with the fact that Muhammad fulfilled Isaiah 19 and Matt 24 claiming to be a prophet foretold in the Bible (as Onias hoped his descendants would), then I think it is reasonable to believe this is who Muhammad was claiming to be.

He was the Levite priest to me, who established an altar on the border of Egypt as prophesised by Isaiah 19, where Egyptians, Assyrians and his own tribe of Cohanim, to this very day, perform grain and animal sacrifices each year during the two big festivals of Islam, known as Eids. Where Muslims perform the Hajj by circling the Kabaa seven times, counter clockwise, as did Jews around the sanctuary in Jerusalem and Onias followers did in Leontopolis. Where the Kabaa itself to this day has the same dimensions as the sanctuary in Jerusalem. Where the Muslims perform worship by first performing abolution three times and then peform prayers in rituals, that are similar to the ones Jews performed in the days of the Temple. He did this at a time when there was a catastrophe just as Jesus and Isaiah described in Isaiah 19. He was a priest like Moses, who led his followers to the promised land and defeated the Romans, but did not step on the land itself. Like Moses, he was brought up by pagans.


I belong to the Y DNA haplogroup J, subclade J2a4*. Descendants of J form a majority in Arab, Samaritan and Jewish Cohen populations.

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Judaism 6th October 2010, 03:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_chasm View Post
DNA Evidence on the Ethiopians and Native Americans does not support their claim of descent from Israelites, because neither of these groups has descendants belonging to haplogroup J:

Ethiopian Jews:

"DNA samples from Beta Israel/Falasha Jews and Ethiopians were studied with the Y-Chromosome-specific DNA probe p49a to screen for TapI restriction polymorphism and haplotypes. Two haplotypes (V and XI) are the most widespread in Beta Israel and Ethiopians, representing about 70% of the total number of haplotypes in Ethiopia. Because the Jewish Haplotypes VII and VIII are not represented in the Falasha population, we conclude that these people descended from ancient inhabitants of Ethiopia who converted to Judaism." -DNA & tradition: the genetic link to the ancient Hebrews By Yaakov Kleiman, p.83


DNA & tradition: the genetic link to ... - Google Books

_____________________________________

Mormon belief about Native American descent from Israelites:



"In the 1990s, DNA studies gave Mormon detractors further ammunition and new allies such as Simon G. Southerton, a molecular biologist and former bishop in the church. Southerton, a senior research scientist with the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization in Australia, said genetic research allowed him to test his religious views against his scientific training.

Genetic testing of Jews throughout the world had already shown that they shared common strains of DNA from the Middle East. Southerton examined studies of DNA lineages among Polynesians and indigenous peoples in North, Central and South America. One mapped maternal DNA lines from 7,300 Native Americans from 175 tribes. Southerton found no trace of Middle Eastern DNA in the genetic strands of today’s American Indians and Pacific Islanders."

DNA tests contradict Mormon scripture. The church says the studies are being twisted to attack its beliefs. Dialogue Ireland

_______________________________

Ben, I suggest you try to learn a little bit about how the field of microbiology can determine ancestry thru Y DNA testing. These are like paternity tests, very precise. There is no guess work involved with them. They provide very specific information.
Nice try for the part which concerns you. But thank you for the precious info.
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6th October 2010, 08:59 PM

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Nice try for the part which concerns you. But thank you for the precious info.
Thanks and like I said before that I realize that what I believe, is not for you. I hope both you and Christians may see the day when some Jewish Rabbi or Jesus returns and fulfills these prophecies as you and they understand them in the Bible too.

regards,

bob


I belong to the Y DNA haplogroup J, subclade J2a4*. Descendants of J form a majority in Arab, Samaritan and Jewish Cohen populations.

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Judaism 18th October 2011, 07:39 PM

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The idea is not new, but few people have been willing to talk about it openly for several reasons until now. Partly, it has to do with modern archaeological and scientific evidence that is pointing in this direction. There is a Hassidic Jewish rabbi and historian in Israel who is writing a book on this subject.



I dont know of any prophecies that Hitler fulfilled. Secondly, Hitler's paternal ancestors may have been Jewish, but were they Israelite?

Here are some facts to consider,

Among the general Jewish population E1b1b forms approx. 20% of the population. It is highest among Jews who are from North Africa (30%). It is 10% of Ashkenazi Jews. It is lowest among Ashkenazi Cohanim (5%). It is found most abundantly in the non Jewish populations, such as Ethiopians, Sudany, Berber (80%), Egyptians (35%) and Yemenites (25%).

Therefore, one has to ask, are Jews who are descendants of E1b1b more likely, descendants of Egyptians/ North Africans/ East Africans who converted to Judaism or actually the descendants of Jacob (Israel)? Let us look at the implications if E1b1b is Israelite:

One would have to believe that 95% of Ash. Cohanim are actually not descendants of Israelites. One would have to believe that the largest group of Jews in the general Jewish population are also not Israelites. Bene Israel of India not Israelites. However, one would have to believe that most of the Berbers, Sudany, Ethiopians, Egyptians and Jordanians are Israelites not the Cohanim/ Jews. It is a free world, one can believe what ever one wants. You are free to believe this if you want. However, most Jewish geneticists tend to believe most Cohanim are descendants of Israelites and a major part of the general Jewish population is Israelite. Therefore, they tend to believe E1b1b probably arrived with early Egyptian converts to Judaism. Later, Berbers and others may also have converted and joined the Sephardi population. You can make your own decisions on this.




I know of only one Arab tradition that speaks about putting Jews to death in Medina. It claims all 900 Jewish men from the tribe of Beni Quraiza were slaughtered in Medina for conspiring with the pagans. Their women and children were sold into slavery. The tradition says it was done as Moses did in the OT. However, the tradition says nothing about 300 rabbis writing a Bible for Islam. Since, this tradition is not in the Quran, I do not believe it. This tradition was recorded by Iben Is-haq (Son of Isaac). Hoever, another historian from the time (Malik) say he fabricated the story, to make Muhammad look like Moses with the Israelites who conspired with the pagans.

regards,

bob

Hey bob, sorry but I am aware of this paranoia of many groups of people claiming to belong to this or that of the Israelite tribes. The Mormons, claim they are Israelites, the Jehovah Witnesses claim that they are the real Jews. And so on and on. This is all part of the inner desire to replace the Theology of Judaism. Hence the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology, which has been classified by some scholars as a form of Christian antisemitism.
Ben
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