Interfaithforums.com  

Go Back   Interfaithforums.com > Debate Forum > Religious Debate
Religious Debate Debate religions and religious topics.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Jesus and Paul
(#1 (permalink))
Old
Lightkeeper's Avatar

Admin
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 14,044
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: Apr 2005
Karma: 3799
Lightkeeper has a reputation beyond reputeLightkeeper has a reputation beyond reputeLightkeeper has a reputation beyond reputeLightkeeper has a reputation beyond reputeLightkeeper has a reputation beyond reputeLightkeeper has a reputation beyond reputeLightkeeper has a reputation beyond reputeLightkeeper has a reputation beyond reputeLightkeeper has a reputation beyond reputeLightkeeper has a reputation beyond reputeLightkeeper has a reputation beyond repute
Jesus and Paul - 19th December 2009, 07:35 PM

I saw a discussion today about Paul's influence on Christianity. This person maintained that Jesus was a radical proposing that a person should have no property, should forsake their parents and everything in pursuit of God.

This person then stated that Paul would have a difficult time building a religion on a radical so he twisted and modified th words of Jesus.

What do you think? Was the message of Jesus twisted by Paul? Did Paul misunderstand the metaphors? Would a person literally have to give up everything? Without Paul would there be a religion based on the teachings of Christ?


All paths lead to awakening.
Reply With Quote
(#2 (permalink))
Old
Rolling_Stone's Avatar

Senior Member
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,187
Blog Entries: 5
Join Date: Jan 2007
Karma: 284
Rolling_Stone is a jewel in the roughRolling_Stone is a jewel in the roughRolling_Stone is a jewel in the rough
19th December 2009, 07:46 PM

I think the guy was nuts. It's the same kind of literalism that atheists use in their arguments and fueled the inquisition.


"God is the circle of infinity whose center is everywhere and circumference nowhere."
Reply With Quote
(#3 (permalink))
Old

Male Goddess
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,352
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Rural Minnesota--go figure...
Karma: 1137
flitzerbiest has much to be proud offlitzerbiest has much to be proud offlitzerbiest has much to be proud offlitzerbiest has much to be proud offlitzerbiest has much to be proud offlitzerbiest has much to be proud offlitzerbiest has much to be proud offlitzerbiest has much to be proud offlitzerbiest has much to be proud of
19th December 2009, 11:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightkeeper View Post
I saw a discussion today about Paul's influence on Christianity. This person maintained that Jesus was a radical proposing that a person should have no property, should forsake their parents and everything in pursuit of God.

This person then stated that Paul would have a difficult time building a religion on a radical so he twisted and modified th words of Jesus.

What do you think? Was the message of Jesus twisted by Paul? Did Paul misunderstand the metaphors? Would a person literally have to give up everything? Without Paul would there be a religion based on the teachings of Christ?
Good question.

I don't think that Paul twisted the message of Jesus so much as he ignored it. Paul rarely mentions the teachings of Jesus. He does not retell any of the parables. Other than the teachings on communion in I Corinthians 11, Paul's letters make no reference to the teaching of Jesus.

I don't think that we can know if Jesus advocated a radical asceticism. If he did, this would not be unusual for the founder of a religious movement. I think there is an element of this preserved in his teachings, but whether or not he intended this to be a literal, universal directive is an open question. Given the pericopes that indicate that Jesus was perceived by some to be a drunkard and a glutton, I would guess probably not.

As for the conflict between Jesus and Paul, I notice it most clearly in their responses to the question of salvation. The gospels twice record that Jesus was asked what was necessary to have eternal life. In both cases, Jesus referred the petitioner to the Ten Commandments, in one case adding, "do this, and you will live." When Paul and Silas were asked ostensibly the same question, their response was quite different: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved." It is clear that Jesus, especially in the synoptic gospels, preached a life of piety. Paul, in contrast, preached a path of belief in a set of doctrines.
Reply With Quote
(#4 (permalink))
Old
Rolling_Stone's Avatar

Senior Member
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,187
Blog Entries: 5
Join Date: Jan 2007
Karma: 284
Rolling_Stone is a jewel in the roughRolling_Stone is a jewel in the roughRolling_Stone is a jewel in the rough
19th December 2009, 11:49 PM

I prefer the religion of Jesus to Paul's religion about Jesus.


"God is the circle of infinity whose center is everywhere and circumference nowhere."
Reply With Quote
(#5 (permalink))
Old
evangelicalhumanist's Avatar

Seeking intelligent life
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 10,889
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Karma: 5682
evangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond repute
20th December 2009, 12:16 AM

True, Paul isn't apparently interested in the earthly Christ, or any of the stuff the gospels teach. But let us not forget, most of the authentic Pauline epistles were completed quite a bit before any of the gospels were written down.

Second, it is also true that the gospels were written:
  • in a language other than that spoken by Jesus, or anyone He knew
  • by people who never met or heard Jesus themselves (save the arguments about John for later, please)
  • in countries where neither Jesus nor his followers likely traveled
  • after much retelling -- in which we must assume that the usual embellishments and mythologizing tendencies happened, as they always, always do in orally transmitted stories
Third, we must also remember that several of the "Epistles of Paul" were not written by Paul at all, but were instead very likely written considerably later by those trying to insert their own agenda into the new religion. (See the book "THE FIRST PAUL: Reclaiming the Radical Visionary Behind the Church’s Icon. By Marcus J. Borg and John Dominic Crossan.")

Following all of that, my own view isn't so much that Paul twisted much of Jesus's message but rather had little real idea what Jesus's message really was. But Paul, coming from Tarsus, with its strong mystery religion focus, was doing something altogether his own. The Christianity we have today is the work of the early Christian's in the second, third and fourth centuries CE, and not much of either Jesus or Paul, frankly.


evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.
Reply With Quote
(#6 (permalink))
Old

Member
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 72
Join Date: Dec 2009
Karma: 10
K9Buck is on a distinguished road
20th December 2009, 03:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightkeeper View Post
What do you think? Was the message of Jesus twisted by Paul? Did Paul misunderstand the metaphors? Would a person literally have to give up everything? Without Paul would there be a religion based on the teachings of Christ?
I haven't a clue. Frankly, I don't worry about a lot of that type of stuff. Although I understand it makes for interesting conjecture, I don't believe my beliefs on some of the particulars will have any bearing on what happens to me after I pass on from here.

With that said, if the message was "twisted" then would it be fair to say that the bible isn't entirely the word of God? Maybe you good folks have already made a determination on this topic. I'm new here so I wouldn't know without doing a search, which I'm much too lazy to do. Some of my more hardened Christians profess to me that the bible represents the word of God and I shrug my shoulders and say "ok". But, ultimately, I don't know for sure if that is so and I know my well-intentioned friends don't really know either. In the end, does it matter? I think not.
Reply With Quote
(#7 (permalink))
Old
evangelicalhumanist's Avatar

Seeking intelligent life
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 10,889
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Karma: 5682
evangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond reputeevangelicalhumanist has a reputation beyond repute
20th December 2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by K9Buck View Post
Some of my more hardened Christians profess to me that the bible represents the word of God and I shrug my shoulders and say "ok". But, ultimately, I don't know for sure if that is so and I know my well-intentioned friends don't really know either. In the end, does it matter? I think not.
Well, it might matter very much for someone who has come to believe that the Bible is actually the Word of God -- and who then finds out that there really are errors, omissions, contradictions and some outright falsehoods. For a great many people, finding even a few such things in the Bible -- and having it proved beyond doubt -- might leave them feeling the whole book was untrustworthy.

For such people, I think that might precipitate a very grave crisis of faith, and that would be very, very painful for them.

So, yes, I think it matters. However, I also think that the Bible does contain exactly those errors, contradictions and falsehoods. This doesn't create a crisis for me, since I've never believed anyway.


evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.
Reply With Quote
(#8 (permalink))
Old
Rev Chard's Avatar

Senior Member
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 4,479
Blog Entries: 19
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Karma: 3054
Rev Chard has a reputation beyond reputeRev Chard has a reputation beyond reputeRev Chard has a reputation beyond reputeRev Chard has a reputation beyond reputeRev Chard has a reputation beyond reputeRev Chard has a reputation beyond reputeRev Chard has a reputation beyond reputeRev Chard has a reputation beyond reputeRev Chard has a reputation beyond reputeRev Chard has a reputation beyond reputeRev Chard has a reputation beyond repute
20th December 2009, 03:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by K9Buck View Post
Some of my more hardened Christians profess to me that the bible represents the word of God and I shrug my shoulders and say "ok". But, ultimately, I don't know for sure if that is so and I know my well-intentioned friends don't really know either. In the end, does it matter? I think not.
I have said often that I believe that the Bible conrtains the Word of God, it was written and translated by man and contains errors and questionable passages.

Overall I believe that God's message is there. One needs to be open to it to discover it.
Reply With Quote
(#9 (permalink))
Old
metis's Avatar

Senior Member
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 8,882
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Detroit & Marquette areas, Michigan
Karma: 2423
metis has a reputation beyond reputemetis has a reputation beyond reputemetis has a reputation beyond reputemetis has a reputation beyond reputemetis has a reputation beyond reputemetis has a reputation beyond reputemetis has a reputation beyond reputemetis has a reputation beyond reputemetis has a reputation beyond reputemetis has a reputation beyond reputemetis has a reputation beyond repute
Rainbow 20th December 2009, 04:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightkeeper View Post
I saw a discussion today about Paul's influence on Christianity. This person maintained that Jesus was a radical proposing that a person should have no property, should forsake their parents and everything in pursuit of God.

This person then stated that Paul would have a difficult time building a religion on a radical so he twisted and modified th words of Jesus.

What do you think? Was the message of Jesus twisted by Paul? Did Paul misunderstand the metaphors? Would a person literally have to give up everything? Without Paul would there be a religion based on the teachings of Christ?
I don't think Paul twisted Jesus' words or message because if had he done so the apostles would not have likely had anything to do with him, especially considering his past. But what I do believe what Paul did was go beyond what Jesus said, the evidence of such being that the apostles seemed confused at times over certain items Paul brought up especially dealing with how to handle the gentiles that were interested in converting. And it's this "going beyond" part that may make us wonder if Jesus would have taught exactly the same thing if he had lived much longer, and I think he might not have approved of it all, especially his followers deifying him as they eventually did.

Nor do I agree with the idea of Jesus supposedly saying one had to give up all, but I do think Jesus made it clear that in life there must be priorities, and that faith and the living of a moral and compassionate life was far more important than money, fame, or power.


The important thing is to not stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing.-- Einstein
Reply With Quote
(#10 (permalink))
Old

LHP-Pantheist
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 367
Join Date: Dec 2009
Karma: 222
Deity Cipher has a spectacular aura aboutDeity Cipher has a spectacular aura aboutDeity Cipher has a spectacular aura about
20th December 2009, 05:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rolling_stone View Post
i prefer the religion of jesus to paul's religion about jesus.
what does that mean?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On





INTERFAITHFORUMS aSTORE





GoDaddy.com - World's No.1 Domain Name Registrar






vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com
Copyright © 2005-2014 Interfaithforums.com. All Rights Reserved


Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0