InterfaithForums

Welcome to the InterfaithForums forums.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact support.

Arcade Support Us FAQ Calendar vBRadio Quiz
Go Back   InterfaithForums > Debate Forum > Religious Debate
Home Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Religious Debate Debate religions and religious topics.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 14th November 2005, 03:23 AM
Travis Clementsmith's Avatar
Macramaer
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 2,126
Coins: 229,498.31
Bank: 185,381.01
Total Coins: 414,879.32
Donate
Karma:1562
Travis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant future


Death, Rebirth, And Meditation

Most of us have a general idea of reincarnation. Most of us have
heard the theories that you could come back as an animal as easily as
you could come back as another human. There is an interesting essay
on the Tibetan ideas illucidated by Ken Wilber in the book "What
Survives?" I thought I might post it in sections to see if it draws
any commentary and discussion.
************************************************** ********************

DEATH, REBIRTH, AND MEDITATION
by Ken Wilber

Some type of reincarnation doctrine is found in virtually every
mystical religious tradition the world over. Even Christianity
accepted it until around the fourth century A.D., when, for largely
political reasons, it was made anathema. Many Christian mystics
today, however, accept the idea. As the Christian theolgian John Hick
pointed out in his important work "Death and Eternal Life", the
consensus of the world's religions, including Christinaity, is that
some sort of reincarnation occurs.

Of course, the fact that many people believe something does not make
it true. And it is very difficult to support the idea of
reincarnation by appealing to "evidence" in the form of alleged past-
life memories, because in most cases these can be shown to be only a
revival of subconscious memory trace from this life.

Yet this problem is not as serious as it might at first appear,
because the doctrine of reincarnation, as used by the great mystical
traditions, is a very specific notion: It does not mean that the mind
travels through successive lives and therefore that under special
conditions - for example, hypnosis - the mind can recall all of its
past lives. On the contrary, it is the soul, not the mind, that
transmigrates. Hence, the fact that reincarnation cannot be proven by
appeal to memories, ideas, knowledge, and so on belong to the mind
and do not transmigrate. All of that is left behind, with the body,
at death. Perhaps a few specific memories can sneak through every now
and then, as in the cases recorded by Professor Ian Stevenson and
others, but these would be the exception rather than the rule. What
transmigrates is the soul, and the soul is not a set of memories or
ideas or beliefs.

Now, according to most branches of the perrinial philosophy, the soul
has two basic defining characteristics: First, it is a repository of
one's "virtue" (or lack thereof) - that is, of one's karma, both good
and bad; second, it is one's "strength" of awareness, or one's
capacity to "witness" the phenomenal world without attachment or
aversion. This second capacity is also known as "wisdom". The
accumulation of these two - virtue and wisdom - constitutes the soul,
which is the only thing that transmigrates. So, when people claim to
be "remembering" a past life - where they lived, what they did or a
living, and so on - they are not, according to any major religion or
branch of the perrinial philosophy, remembering any actual past
lives. Only Buddhas (or tulkus), it is said, can remember past lives -
the exception to the rule.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 14th November 2005, 03:24 AM
Travis Clementsmith's Avatar
Macramaer
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 2,126
Coins: 229,498.31
Bank: 185,381.01
Total Coins: 414,879.32
Donate
Karma:1562
Travis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant future


Reincarnation As Spiritual Hypothesis

But if ostensible past-life memories are not good evidence for
reincarnation, what other type of evidence could there be to support
the doctrine? Here we should remember that the perrinial philosophy
in general allows three major and different types of knowledge and
verification: sensory or empirical knowledge; mental or logical
knowledge; and spiritual or contemplative knowledge. Reincarnation is
not a sensory or mental hypothesis; it cannot be explained or
verified using sensory data or logical deduction. It is a spiritual
hypothesis, which is to be tested with the eye of contemplation, not
with the eye of flesh or the eye of mind. So, although we will not
find any sort of ordinary evidence to convince us about
reincarnation, once we can take up contemplation and become fairly
proficient at it, we will start to notice certain obvious facts - for
example, that the witnessing position, the soul position, begins to
partake of eternity, of infinity.

There is a timeless nature about the soul that becomes perfectly
obvious and unmistakable: One atcually begins to "taste" the
immortality of the soul, to intuit that the soul is to some extent
above time, and history, above life and death. In this way one
becomes gradually certain that the soul does not die with the body or
the mind, that the soul has existed before and will exist again. But
this certainly has nothing to do with specific memories or past
lives. Rather, it is a recollection of that aspect of the soul that
touches spirit and is therefore radically and perfectly eternal. In
fact, from this angle it becomes obvious that, as the great Vedantic
seer Shankara put it, "the one and only transmigrant is the Lord," or
Absolute Spirit itself. It is ultimately Buddah-mind itself, the One
and Only, that is appearing as all these forms, manifesting itself as
all these appearances, transmigrating as all these souls. In these
deeper stages of contemplation, this realization of eternity, of
spirit as undying and indestructable, becomes quite papable.

Yet, according to the perrinial teachings, it is not merely the
Absolute that transmigrates: The individual soul itself, if not
enlightened, also transmigrates. If the soul awakens, or dissolves in
spirit, then it no longer transmigrates; it is "liberated," or it
realzes that, as spirit, it is reincarnated everywhere, as all
things. But, if the soul does not awaken to spirit, if it is not
enlightened, then it is reincarnated, taking with it the accumulation
of its virtue and wisdom, rather than specific recollections of its
mind. And this chain of rebirths continues until these two
accumulations - virtue and wisdom - finally reach a critical point,
whereupon the soul becomes enlightened, or dissolved and released in
spirit, thus bringing individual transmigration to an end.

Even Buddhism, which denies the absoltue existence of a soul,
acknowledges that the soul has a relative, or conventional,
existence, and that this rlatively or conventionally existing soul
does transmigrate. When the Absolute, or shunyata, is directly
experienced, the relative transmigration - and the separate soul -
comes to an end. One might think, however, that the Buddhist would
object to our use of the word soul in this context, since this term
usually has the connotation of something that is indestructable or
everlasting - a connotation that seems to be incompatible with the
Buddhist idea that the soul has only a relative and temporary
existence. A closer look at the teachings of the perrinial
philosophy, however, will resolve this apparent contradiction.

According to the perennial tradition, the soul is indeed
indestructable, but when it fully discovers spirit, its own sense of
seprateness is dissolved or transcended. The soul still remains as
the individuality, or expression of the particular person, but its
being or center shifts to spirit, thus dissolving the illusion of
separateness. And this doctrine accords almost exactly with the
highest teachings of Buddhism - the anuttaratantra yoga, or "highest
Tantra teaching" - according to which there exists at the very center
of the heart chakra, in each and every individual, what is
technically called "the indestructable drop" (or luminosity). As the
Vajrayana teaches, it is this indestructable that transmigrates.
Further, it is indestructable; even Buddahs are said to possess it.
The indestructable drop is said to be the seat of the very
subtle "wind" (rLung) that supports the "very subtle [or causal]
mind," the mind of enlightenment, or one's spiritual enlightenment,
or one's spiritual essence. Hence, Buddhism agrees with the perrinial
philosophy: The indestructable drop is the soul, the continuum, as I
have defined it.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 14th November 2005, 03:25 AM
Travis Clementsmith's Avatar
Macramaer
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 2,126
Coins: 229,498.31
Bank: 185,381.01
Total Coins: 414,879.32
Donate
Karma:1562
Travis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant future


Stages Of The Dying Process: Dissolution Of The Great Chain Of Being

The various branches of the perrenial philosophy agree, in a general
way, about the stages of the dying process and the experiences that
accompany these stages: Death is a process in which the Great Chain
of Being "dissolves," for the individual, "from the bottom up," so to
speak. That is, upon death, the body dissolves into mind, then the
mind dissolves into soul, then the soul dissolves into spirit, with
each of these dissolutions marked by a specifc set of events. For
example, body dissolving into mind is the actual process of physical
death. Mind dissolving into soul is experienced as a review
amd "judgement" of one's life. Soul dissolving into spirit is a
radical release and transcendence. Then the process "reverses," so to
speak, and based upon one's karmic tendencies, one generates a soul
out of spirit, then a mind out of soul, then a body our of mind -
whereupon one forgets all the previous steps and finds oneself reborn
in a physical body. According to the Tibetans, the whole process
takes about forty nine days.


The Tibetan tradition contains the richest, most detailed description
of the stages of the dissolution of the Great Chain durring the dying
process. According tothe Tibetans, the subjective experineces that
accompany each of the eight stages of the dissolution are known
technically as "mirage," "smokelike," "fireflies," "butter
lamp," "white appearance," "red increase," "black near-attainment,"
and "clear light". {Travis note: A butter lamp is a Tibetan religious
artifact that looks either like a chalice that holds a candle or a
skinny candleholder with a rounded burning top.] In order to
understand these terms, we need a somewhat more precise and detailed
version of the Great Chain. So, instead of our simplified version of
body, mind, soul, and spirit, we will use a slightly expanded
version: matter, sensation, perception, impulse, psychic, subtle,
causal (or unmanifest), and spirit (or ultimate).

The first stage of the dying process occurs when the aggregate of
form, or matter - the lowest of the Great Chain - dissolves. There
are five external signs of this: The body loses its physical power;
one's vision becomes unclear and blurred; the body becomes heavy and
feels like it is "sinking"; life goes out of the eyes; and the body's
complexion loses its luster. The internal sign, which occurs
spontaneously with the outer signs, is a "miragelike appearance," a
type of shimmering, watery image, such as appears on a desert on a
hot day. This is said to occur because, technically, the "wind"
(prana) of the "earth" element has dissolved in the "central channel"
and the "water" element thus predominates - hence, the watery or
miragelike appearance.

Next, the second aggregate, that of sensation, dissolves. Again,
there are five external signs: One ceases to have bodily sensations,
pleasant or unpleasant; mental sensations cease; bodily fluids dry up
(the tongue becomes very dry, for example); one no longer perceives
external sounds; and inner sounds (buzzing in the ears, for example)
also cease. The internal sign associated with this second dissolution
is a "smokelike appearance," which is like a fog. Technically, this
is said to occur because the "water" element, which caused the
miragelike appearance, is dissolving into the "fire" element - hence
the smoky appearance.

The third stage is the dissolution of the third level or aggregate,
that of perception or discernment. The five external signs: One can
no longer recognize or discern objects; one can no longer recognize
family or friends; the warnth of the body is lost (the body becomes
cold); one's inhalation becomes very weak and shallow; and one can no
longer detect smells. The internal sign spontaneously accompanying
this stage is called "fireflies," which is described as an appearance
like a bunch of fireflies or cinder sparks fom a fire. Technically,
this is said to occur becuase the "fire" element has dissolved and
the "wind" element now predominates.

The fourth stage is the dissolution of the fourth level or aggregate,
that of impulse (or "internal formations"). The five external signs
of this dissolution: One can no longer move (because there are no
impulses); one can no longer recollect actions or their purposes; all
breathing stops; the tongue becomes thick and blue and one can no
longer speak clearly; and one can no longer experience tastes. The
internal sign of this is the "butter-lamp appearance," described as
looking like a steady, clear, bright light. (At this point we can
start to see similarities with the near-death experience, which I
will discuss further below.)

Last edited by Travis Clementsmith : 14th November 2005 at 03:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 14th November 2005, 03:26 AM
Travis Clementsmith's Avatar
Macramaer
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 2,126
Coins: 229,498.31
Bank: 185,381.01
Total Coins: 414,879.32
Donate
Karma:1562
Travis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant future


To understand the fifth and subsequent stages of dissolution process,
it is necessary to know a little Tantric physiology. According to the
Vajrayana, all mental states - gross, subtle, and very subtle - are
supported by corresponding "winds," or energies, or life forces,
(prana in Sanskrit, rLung in Tibetan). When these winds dissolve,
their corresponding minds also dissolve. Stage five is dissolution of
the fifth level or aggregate, that of cognition, or consciousness
itself. As the Vajrayana teachings make clear, however, there are
many levels of consciousness. These levels are divided into what are
called the gross mind, the subtle mind and the very subtle mind, each
of which dissolves in order, producing specific signs and
experiences. So, stage five is the dissolution of the gross mind,
along with the "wind," or prana (life force), that supports it. There
is then no gross conceptualization, no ordinary mind, left.

Durring the fifth stage, after the last of the gross mind dies away
and the first of the subtle mind emerges, one experiences a state
called "white appearance." This is said to be a very bright, very
clear white light, like a clear autumn night brilliantly lit by a
shimmering full moon. To understand the cause of this white
appearance, however, we have to introduce the Tibetan notion of
thig.le, which means, roughly, "drops" or "essence". According to
Vajrayana, there are four drops, or essesnces, that are particularly
important. One, the white drop, is said to be located at the crown of
the head; one receives it from one's father, and it is said to
represent (or to actually be) bodhicitta, or enlightenment mind. The
second, the red drop, one receives from one's mother; it is located
at he naval center. (The white drop is also said to be connected with
semen, the red drop with [menstrual] blood, but the point is that men
and women have both, equally.) The third, which is called "the drop
that is indestructable for this life," is located at the very center
of the heart chakra. This drop is, so to speak, the essence of this
particular lifetime of the individual; it is one's "continuum," which
stores all the impressions and understandings of this particular
life. And inside this "drop that is indestructable for this life" is
the fourth drop, "the drop that is eternally indestructable or
forever indestructable." This is the indestructable drop that remains
forever - that is, it is indestructable through this life,
indestructable through death and the dying process, indestructable
through the bardo, or intermediate state between death and rebirth,
and through rebirth itself. This drop even remains through
enlightenment and is, in fact, the very subtle wind that serves as
the "mount," or basis, of enlightenment being. As mentioned before,
even Buddahs are said to possess this eternally indestructable drop.

SO, what we have seen so far is the dissolution of all the gross
winds and the gross minds associated with them. The first subtle mind
has thus emerged - that of "white appearance" - and it is "riding" a
correspondingly subtle wind, or subtle energy. Now, the actual cause
of this mind of white appearance is said to be the descent of the
white drop, or bodhicitta, form the crown of the heart chakra.
Usually, it is said, the white drop is held at the crown chakra by
constricting knots and winds of ignorance and gross-level clinging
and grasping. But at this stage of the dying process, the gross mind
has dissolved, so the knots around the crown chakra naturally loosen,
and the white drop descends to the indestructable drop at the heart
chakra. When it reaches it, the mind of white appearance
spontaneously arises.

Incidentally, if these Tibetan explanations of the phenomena in
question sound a bit farfetched, we should remember that there is a
tremendous amount of contemplative evidence supporting the existence
of the various experiences said to occur durring the dying process.
The experiences themselves are real and seem largely
incontrovertible, but there is plenty of room to argue with the
traditional Tibetan account of what actually causes them. (I'll
return to this point shortly.) Here I am merely describing the strait
Tibetan version as a point of departure.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 14th November 2005, 03:37 AM
Travis Clementsmith's Avatar
Macramaer
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 2,126
Coins: 229,498.31
Bank: 185,381.01
Total Coins: 414,879.32
Donate
Karma:1562
Travis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant future


But, to continue with the stages of the dying process. At stage six,
the subtle mind and its wind dissolve, and an even subtler mind,
called "red increase," emerges. Red increase is alsoan experience of
brilliant light; but in this case, it is an experinece like a clear
autumn day pervaded by bright sunlight. Techincally, this is said to
occur because the gross life-supporting winds have dissolved, and
thus all the knots and constrictions around the navel, which were
holding the red bodhicitta, or red drop at the navel, are released or
unloosened, and the red drop rises up to the indestructable drop at
the heart. When it reaches it, the mind of red increase spontaneously
arises.

Stage seven is said to be the dissolution of the subtle mind of red
increase and the emergence of an even subtler mind and wind,
called "the mind of black near-attainment." In this state, all
consciousness ceases, all manifestation dissolves. Further, there is
a cessation of all of the specific consciousnessesand energies that
were developed in this life. The experience is said to be one of a
completely dark night, with no stars, no light. It is called "near
attainment" because it is "nearing" the final attainment, so to
speak; it is nearing the clear light void. This level, in other
words, can be thought of as the highest of the subtle or the lowest
of the causal, or as this unmanifest dimension of spirit itself.
Technically, this "blackness" is said to occur because the white drop
from above and the red drop from below now surround the
indestructable drop, thus cutting off all awareness.

In the next and final stage, however - in stage eight - the wite drop
continues downward and the red drop continues upward, thus freeing or
opening the indestructable drop. Then, it is said, a period of
extraordinary clarity and brilliant awareness results, which is
experineced like an extremely clear,bright, and radiant sky, free
from any type of blemish, any clouds, any obstructions. This is the
clear light.

Now, the mind of clear light is said to be not a subtle mind, but a
very subtle mind, andit mounts a correspondingly very subtle wind or
energy. This very subtle, or "causal" mind and energy are, in fact,
the mind and energy of the eternally indestructable drop. This is the
causal body, or the ultimate spiritual mind and energy, the
Dharmakaya. At this point, the eternally indestructable drop sheds
the lifetime indestructable drop, all consciousness ceases, and the
soul, the eternally indestructable drop, commences the bardo
experience, or the intermediate states that will eventually lead to
rebirth. The white drop continues downward and appears as a drop of
semen on the sexual organ, and the red drop continues upward and
appears as a drop of blood at the nostrils. Death, finally, has
occured, and the body can be disposed of. To do so before this has
occured makes one karmically guilty of murder, because the body is
still alive.

{Next: Stages of the Rebirth Process)
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 14th November 2005, 03:38 AM
Travis Clementsmith's Avatar
Macramaer
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 2,126
Coins: 229,498.31
Bank: 185,381.01
Total Coins: 414,879.32
Donate
Karma:1562
Travis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant future


Stages Of The Rebirth Process

What we have seen so far is the progressive dissolution of the Great
Chain, in an individual case, starting at the bottom and working up.
Matter, or form, dissolved into body (or into sensation, then
perception, then impulse), and body dissolved into mind, into the
gross mind. The gross mind then dissolved into the subtle mind, or
soul realms, and the soul then reverted to causal or spiritual
essence. Now, at this point, the process will be reversed, depending
entirely on the karma of the soul - on the accumulation of virtue and
wisdom that the soul takes with it. Thus, the bardo experience is
divided into three realms of spirit, then mind, then body, then
matter. The soul, according to its virtue and wisdom, will either
recognize, and thus remain in, the higher dimensions, or it will not
recognize them - indeed, will actually flee from them - and thus will
end up running "down" the Great Chain of Being until it is forced to
adopt a gross physical body and hence be reborn.

At the point of actual or final death - which is what we have been
calling the eighth stage of the overall dying process - the soul, or
the eternally indestructable drop, enters what is called the chikhai
bardo, which is nothing other than spirit itself, the Dharmakaya. As
the Tibetan Book of the Dead states, "At this moment, the first
glimpsing of the Bardo of the Clear Light of Reality, which is the
infallible Mind of the Dharmakaya, is experienced by all sentient
beings."

This is the point where meditation and spiritual work become so
important. Most people, according to the Tibetan Book of the Dead,
cannot recognize this state for what it is. In Christian terms, they
do not know Godand thus they do not know when God stares them in the
face. In fact, they are at this point one with God, entirely and
totally in the supreme identity with Godhead. But unless they
recognize this identity, unless they have been contemplatively
trained to recognize the state of divine Oneness, they will actuall
flee from it, driven by their lower desires and karmic propensities.
As W. Y. Evans-Wentz, the first translator of the Tibetan Book of the
Dead, put it: "Owing to unfamiliarity with such a state, which is an
eccstatic state of non-ego, of [causal] consciousness, the average
human being lacks te power to function in it; karmic propensities
becloud the consciousness-principle with thoughts of personality, of
individualized being, of dualism, and, losing equilibrium, the
consciousness-principle falls away from the Clear Light."

So, the soul contracts away from Godhead, away from Dharmakaya, away
from the causal. Indeed, it is said that the soul actually seeks to
escape from the realization of divine Oneness and "blacks out," so to
speak, until it awakens in the next lower realm, which is called the
chonyid bardo, the subtle dimension, the Sambhogkaya, the archetypal
dimension. This experienced is marked by all sorts of psychic and
subtle visions, visions of gods and goddesses, dakas and dakinis, all
accompanied by dazzling and almost painfully brilliant lights and
illuminations and colors. But again, most people are not used to this
state and have no idea about transcendental light and divine
illumination, so they actually flee these phenomena and are attracted
by the lesser or impure lights that also appear.

Thus, the soul again contracts inwardly, tries to get away from these
divine visions, blacks out again, and wakes up in what is called the
sidpa bardo, the gross-reflecting realm. Here the soul eventually has
a vision of its future parents making love, and - in good old-
fashioned Freudian style - if it is going to be a boy it feels desire
for the mother and hatred for the father, and if it is going to be a
girl, it feels hatred for the mother and attraction for the father.
(So far as I can tell, this is the first detailed explanation of the
Oedipal/Electra complex - about a thousand years ahead of Freud, as
Jung himself pointed out.)

At this stage, it is said, the soul - because of its jealousy and
envy - "steps in" in its imagination to separate the father and the
mother, to come between them - that is, it ends up being reborn to
them. It now has desire, aversion, attachment, hatred, and a gross
body: In other words, it is a human being. It is at the lowest stage
of the Great Chain, and its own growth and development will be a
climb back up the stages that it has just denied and fled from; its
evolution is, so to speak, a reversal of the "fall". How far it gets
back up the Great Chain of Being will determine how it handles the
dying process and the bardo states when it is again time to shed its
physical body.

[Next: Interpretation of the Subjective Death and Rebirth Experience]
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 14th November 2005, 03:39 AM
Travis Clementsmith's Avatar
Macramaer
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 2,126
Coins: 229,498.31
Bank: 185,381.01
Total Coins: 414,879.32
Donate
Karma:1562
Travis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant future


Interpretation Of The Subjective Death And Rebirth Experience

The contemplative evidence strongly suggests that the data, the
actual experiences that accompany the dying process - for example,
the "white appearance," the "red appearance," the "black near-
appearance," or whatever terms we want to use - exist and are very
real. Further evidence of their reality is found in the fact that
they have atcual ontological referants in the higher dimension of the
Great Chain of Being. The three experiences just mentioned, for
instance, refer respectively to what I have called the psychic, the
subtle, and the causal structures or levels of consciousness. Indeed,
they refer very precisely to those levels, despite the various
different and legitimate explanations that might also be given for
them. In my opinion, then, the levels are real, they have actual and
definite ontological status, and thus the experiencs of those levels
are themselves real. But this does not mean that individuals'
experineces of these levels cannot be quite different.

For example, a Buddhist would probably experience the "white
appearance" as a type of emptiness or shunyata experience, whereas a
Christian mystic might see it in the form of a saintly presence,
possibly Christ himself, or a great being of light. But this is as it
should be. For, until the "lifetime indestructable drop" - the
accumulated impressions and beliefs gathered throughout this
lifetime - actually dissolves (at what we have called stage seven),
it will color and mold all of one's experiences. A Buddhist will
therefore have a Buddhist experience, a Christian will have a
Christian experience, A Hindu will have a Hindu experience, and an
atheist will probably be extermely confused. All this is what we
should expect. It is only at stage eight, at the clear light void, or
pure Godhead, that one's personal interpretations and subtle beliefs
are shed and direct realization of pure reality itself, as clear
light, is given. Hence, the Tibetan explanation of the data is not
the only account possible. It is, however, one among several very
important reflections or perspectives on the dying process of dying,
death, and rebirth, rooted in a profound grasp of the great Chain of
Being, both going "up" (meditation and death) and going "down" (bardo
and rebirth).

[Next: Near-Death Experience and the Stages of the Dying Process]
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 14th November 2005, 03:40 AM
Travis Clementsmith's Avatar
Macramaer
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 2,126
Coins: 229,498.31
Bank: 185,381.01
Total Coins: 414,879.32
Donate
Karma:1562
Travis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant future


Near-Death Experience And The Stages Of The Dying Process

The most common phenomenon in Western reports of the near-death
experience (NDE) is the experience of passing through the tunnel and
then seeing a brilliant light, or meeting a great being of light - a
being that has particular wisdom and intelligence and bliss. The
particular individual's religious belief does not matter here;
atheists have this experienceas often as true believers. This fact,
in itself, tends to corroborate the idea that, in the dying process,
one does contact some of the subtler dimensions of existence.

From the standpoint of the Tibetan model we have been discussing,
the "light" reported in NDEs, depending on its intensity or its
clarity, could be the level of the butter lamp, the white appearance,
or the red increase. The point is that, at this point in the death
process, the gross mind and body, or the gross winds and energies,
have dissolved, and thus the subtler dimensions of mind and energy
begin to emerge, which are charaterized by brilliant illumination and
mental clarity and wisdom. So it is not surprising that people
universally, regardless of belief, report the experience of light at
this point. Many people who report NDEs believe that the light they
have seen is absolute spirit. If the Tibetan model is accurate,
however, then what people see durring the NDE is not exactly the
highest level. Beyond white appearance or red increase is black near-
attainment, then clear light, then the bardo states.

The experience of the subtle level light is very pleasant - in fact,
amazingly blissful. At the next level, the very subtle or causal, is
even more so. Indeed, people who have had NDEs report that they have
never experienced anything as peaceful, as profound, as blissful. But
we need to keep in mind that all of the experiences up to this point
are molded by the "lifetime indestructable drop"; hence, as we have
already noted, Christians might see Christ, Buddhists see Buddah, and
so on. All of this makes sense, because the experience of these
realms are conditioned by one's lifetime experiences. But then, at
stage eight, the "lifetime indestructable drop" is shed, alond with
all personal memories and impressions and specifics of this
particular life, and the "eternally indestructable drop" moves out of
the body and into the bardo state. And therupon commences the bardo
ordeal - a real nightmare unless one is very familiar with these
states through meditation.

The dying experience and the NDE are actually a lot of fun, in a
sense: It is universally reported that, after one gets over the
terror of dying, the process is blissful, peaceful, extraordinary.
But when the "ascent" is completed, the "descent," or bardo, begins -
and there's the rub. Because at this point, all of one's karmic
propensities, all of one's attachments, desires, and fears, actually
appear before one's eyes, so to speak, just as in a dream, becuase
the bardo is a purely mental or subtle dimension, like a dream, where
everything one thinks immediately appears as reality.

Thus, one does not hear about the "downside" to the death process
from the NDE people. They are just tasting the early stages of the
overall process. Nevertheless, their testimony is powerful evidence
that this process does indeed occur. It all fits with a remarkable
and unmistakable precision. Moreover, it is not possible to explain
away their testimony by caliming that all of them have studied
Tibetan Buddhism; in fact, most of them have not even heard of it.
But they have essentially similar experiences as the Tibetans because
these experiences reflect the universal and cross-cultural reality of
the Great Chain of Being. It now appears that there is simply no
other way to read the really extensive data gathered on this subject.

[Next: Meditation as Rehersal for Death]
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 14th November 2005, 03:41 AM
Travis Clementsmith's Avatar
Macramaer
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 2,126
Coins: 229,498.31
Bank: 185,381.01
Total Coins: 414,879.32
Donate
Karma:1562
Travis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant future


Meditation As Rehersal For Death

Where does meditation fit into all of this? Every form of meditation
is basically a way to transcend the ego, or die to the ego. In that
sense, it mimics death - that is, death of the ego. If one progresses
fairly well in any meditation system, one eventually comes to a
pointof having so exhaustively "witnessed" the mind and body that one
actually rises above, or transcends, the mind and body, thus "dying"
to them, to the ego, and awakening as subtle soul or even spirit. And
this is actually experienced as a death. In Zen it is called the
Great Death. It can be a fairly easy experience, a relatively
peaceful transcendence of subject-object dualism, or - because it is
a real death of sorts - it can also be terrifying. But subtly or
dramatically, quickly or slowly, the sense of being a separate self
dies, or is dissolved, and one finds a prior and higher identity in
and as universal spirit.

But meditation can also be a rehersal of actual death. According to
Zen teachings, if you die before you die, then when you die you won't
die. SOme meditation systems, particularly the Sikh (the Radhasoami
saints) and the Tantric (Hindu and Buddhist), contain very precise
meditations that mimic or induce the various stages of the dying
process very closely - including stopping the breath, the body
becoming cold, the heart slowing and sometimes stopping, and so
forth. Actual physical death is not much of a surprise, and one can
then more easily use the intermediate states of consciousness that
appear after death - the bardos - to gain enlightened understanding.
Th