Is God beyone reason?
http://www.philosopher.org.uk/god.htm

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I don’t belive so. I think that there is enough evidence left to explore that even if one didn’t have all of their senses they could find GOD. There is an old saying that if one is not looking for GOD, there is a good chance that one will not find Him.

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"There is one thing that organized religion is not qualified to teach and that is an individual's purpose."-GOD

It depends on how one uses the word "reason". In a pedestrian sense, most people use "reason" in the same way they use "rational" or "logical". In this sense Deity is beyond reason because it is not subject to deductive reasoning.

Deists use the term "Reason" differently, or at least do not confine it to the above definition. Reason is the transcending aspect of consciousness. So, when humans "reason" they are attempting to push the bounds of their previous consciousness structures. In this sense, Reason is the agent of change in the temporal aspect of reality, but not necessarily the eternal aspect.

An evolution of Reason might look like this:

Archaic-reasoning is transcended but included by Magical-reasoning which is transcended but included by Mythical-reasoning which is transcended but included by Rational-reasoning which is transcended but included by Aperspectival-reasoning which is transcended but included by Intuitive-reasoning which is transcended but in included by Harmonic-reasoning which is transcended but included by Integral-reasoning and so on, and so on.

The important thing to remember is that transcend but include does not mean totally disregard. Rather it incorporates and streamlines, alters but honors, so that the positive aspects are kept while the baggage is dropped off.

Deity would therefore be the totality of the temporal and eternal dynamic. In that sense, Deity is beyond Reason only because it also includes the eternal nature of reality, unless one wants to term Non-duality as Non-dual Reason.

-TC

In all of that, there is still not one thing that says that reason (however it might be defined, and however many levels you might wish to take it to) can establish the existence of a deity. And yet, everybody is perfectly happy to assume that this is so, and having agreed (!) upon it, feels free to reason about the nature of such an entity.

Yet, your higher reasoning "includes and respects" the magical, mythical and intuitive. I cannot come to grips with this "reasoning" that allows one to magic into existence an explanation for that which is not understood, and then to establish its reality sufficiently to begin trying to dissect it.

Thus, this statement makes two assertions which have not, so far as I can see, been established. First, that there is in fact a Deity, and second, that said deity is not subject to deductive reasoning. From what "reasoning" have those facts been established?
Yet this "reason" that you claim transcends conscious structures could as easily be supposed to be merely "imagination." I find nothing that says that artifacts conjured up by this kind of reasoning are representative of any reality.

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evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.

Certainly, but you go back and forth in using my scale by reducing the argument to rational-reasoning alone, which due to the structure of its methods comes to the conclusions it does. There was no claim that there was knowledge of Deity, even the general definition of Deism is "a belief in God through Reason and Nature". All things start at belief and then, through the reaoning process, form structures about that belief until understanding and hopefully knowledge. Most discovery is first intuited before it is evidenced, so I see no reason to disregard the object of your assumption simply because another wishes not to. Otherwise, you have dogma, whether it is mythical or scientific. I still feel you use the word "entity" to convey a being outside of reality, which does not fit my conception. Why should I not feel free to reaon upon the nature of consciousness and being? Is there a prohibition on such that makes this such a crime?


Let's see, I used the words "transcends but includes", "incorporates and streamlines", and "alters but honors". So why did you quote "includes andspects" as if I said it? "Includes and respects" is a communitarian value (GREEN level in Spiral Dynamics) but that is not what I meant to impart, so that must be what you inferred. It is not the same thing. I can be a rational person who uses the mythical stories for children to impart moral values. If I were at the magical level of reasoning I might actually believe the myths, but at the rational level, I only use them as teaching tools. See the difference? You can't arbitrarily wipe out whole consciousness structures or the ladder falls apart.


But I am not trying to logically argue for the existence of Deity, I believe it to be there. Second, if you are not willing to try other methods, then it does no good to prove them to you. They will be words without meaning because you will reduce the words to the rational level. Trans-rationality is not about words and logical proofs. If its not your cup of tea, don't drink, but don't complain to me if your thirsty either.


If imagination is what took civilization from mythic structures to rational strucutres and you find that word more comfortable, it bothers me not. Reason, to me, is applying that imagination.

-TC

But anyone who is looking for "God" certainly will not find Him because the assumption that "God" can be found is false. Why do we ignore the fact that "God" has chosen to remain invisible? You could be looking at "God" and not know it. But this does not mean He is outside of reason. The invisible still exist.

One other thing, I said Reason is the transcending aspect of consciousness structures, not transcendent of them. It is not something apart from the process, it is integral to the process. Evolution is first a loop of successful patterns, be they physical, biological, or intellectual. The latest product of which is what pushes that envelope, that push is "Reason" or reasoning, whether it is for the individual through the patterns already established or the breaking of new ground for the species.

-TC

The prominent theory and leading assunmption is that you have to be chosen or have strong relations to find God; then it is just a matter of everyone else following a Prophet’s particular perspective of God. Indeed many are taught that you can only find God thorugh a particular person’s relationship with this Supreme BEing. This is what confounds followers of religion and stops them cold from attempting to secure their own understanding, their own personal REALationship of not only knowing GOD but discovering what GOD entails to their individual life and living. Authorities will explain to their followers that there is no reason to search for GOD or inquire about His will because it has already been done for you. To many people this appears to be a relief and a reason for solace.

Another method that is promoted in finding GOD is the inclusion of faith. GOD does not respond well to faithful representations. It would be the equivalent of me trying to get to K(NOW) someone and neglecting every performance or word they have ever expressed in the hope that I can secure them for my own purpose. Believe or do not believe; there is no faith when finding GOD.

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"There is one thing that organized religion is not qualified to teach and that is an individual's purpose."-GOD

Isaiah 55:8,9 - "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

That is what God says in the bible, in a nutshell.

"" Isaiah 55:8,9 - "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.""
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This is very true and does explain why God cannot just tell all of what is going on here on Earth in the realms of the truth .

I have said this many times that if God wanted to eliminate Faith He could but won't because of factors in His world which are too above our Human understanding .

If God showed us all that He was real we would not go by Faith ,but by Fact , and since we are living in Faith Isaiah 55:8,9 puts some sense to it and if God says we need to believe in Faith of Him He has a valid reason to do so , and although Isaiah does not tell why God is this way Isaiah gives us the realms in " the whole picture" kind of way and l agree with those words as interpreted this way .