I liked the title of Fortyone's intro thread. Do Saints need sinners?

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I was reminded the other day of someone who said, "If you put a group of saints together they will find the sinner in the midst."

All saints have sinned.

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@->Interfaithmom<-@

There is nothing that can help you understand your beliefs more than trying to explain them to an inquisitor....

Frank Clark

This reminds me of the cliche "To err is human" Aren't all saints human? Wouldn't it follow that all saints are also sinners?

And if "Forgiveness is divine" then wouldn't that mean that all we would have to do is forgive to be closer to Diety?

What I was refering to is the law of opposites... Up needs down, is needs isn't, white needs black, etcetera. In this sense I think it's a slam dunk case that Saints (the mythologized sort like good old Peter and the everyday; "I'm a good --insert religion here--" kind) by definition need sinners or those to distinguish themselves from. All kinds of social groups do this- from the religious to the social clubs even to the gangs... they know how "good" or "moral" or "better off" or "cool" they are by contrasting themselves, their practices, and their beliefs with the "bad", the "immoral", or the "nasty" of the Others...

I think an elementary understanding that opposites arise mutally is sorely lacking in our culture (the west in general) and especially in our religions, or at least as they are practiced. I mentioned having 5 meetings with Mormon missionairies who came around trying to convert me in my intro post. At one point I asked them if they could push a button and wake up tomorrow and the entire world was Mormon, and not just in name only, but that they would have gone through the necessary "understanding" and were "really" Mormons, would they push the button and they both agreed that yes they would- as long as it was "true" conversion and all of this and not just some magic trick. I personally think this would be a big mistake. I explained to them that at that point they would essentially stop being Mormon. They didn't really understand. I think a lot of us, most of us, myself included have a trouble understanding this.

But yes, saints need sinners and I need you!

Do doctors need patient? Do the rich need the poor? A teacher the student? I think fourtyone is on to something. Do we create the opposit in order to give ourself a "purpose"?

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May your awareness be perfection

Does 'big' need a 'small' for it to know itself as big?

they who most loudly proclaim themselves to be saints are usually the worst sinners

An action can be contrary to the common good and not be a sin. For instance: Suppose you're driving down a residential street (within the speed limit), and a child darts out from behind a parked car and you hit him. You could have put on the brake earlier but you didn't know he was there. Hitting the child is not a sin. A saint may err, but it will never be from selfish motives, and it will never be a sin.

P.S.: There are very few saints.

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I, folks. I'm just visiting. The prayer stick is coming along, but like everything, it is far more complicated than when I started. I'll be supporting 5 different languages, 6 different religions, in addition to several audio routines.

Even one notorious kidnapper, Pope Pius IX. This "Servant of the Servants of God" kidnapped 6-year old Edgardo Mortara from his loving Jewish family, spirited him away to a house for Catholic converts in Rome (maintained by taxes levied on Jews), and refused to ever return him, has been beatified (he's "blessed" now) by John Paul II. No doubt he'll be made a saint before long.

Amazing what can be foist upon us.

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evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.