That statement was posted yesterday, and I cannot leave it alone, because it speaks directly to one of the most troubling aspects of faith. In this case, the Christian faith, but there are analogues in other faiths, too.

This statement boldly claims, as is (supposed to be) believed by the majority of members of the world's largest faith, that God will abandon people innocent of any possible crime. For those Christians who still believe in Hell, it is much worse than abandonment, it is infinite punishment for an act of omission brought on by circumstances utterly beyond the control of the individual.

I speak, of course, of people born into and raised in other faith traditions. The Muslim child, taught from the first moment he could understand, the traditions of that faith, taught also to obey and honour his parents and their traditions, trusting utterly in the the God that he has come to know -- will, at death, be consigned to everlasting torment (in some traditions) or at the very least abandoned to absolute extinction, abandoned by a God called "loving."

Analagously, the Muslim must believe that the Christian, accepting Jesus as divine, is worshipping another God. To the strict monotheist, this is a blasphemy definitely worthy of Hell, and there is no doubt in the minds of the faithful that Allah will arrange it!

It is my personal view that this casts the God of the faithful into the worst possible light. If there is a loving creator, what worse thing could anyone think of Him? What could be more blasphemous than this notion of eternal punishment for believing what one was taught? If what one is taught is wrong, then perhaps the teacher might be held to accounts, but not, surely, the student. What could possibly be more unjust than that?

I'm afraid no believer is ever going to find the way to make me understand how they could conceive such horror about a God they call "loving."

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evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.

I am not going to try to refute your thoughts. I don't believe that God will punish a person for believing one way or another, inspite of what religious texts teach. One's relationship with God/dess is personal, and s/he knows what you are; sinner, saint, or somewhere inbetween.

I also don't think that God/dess wants us arguing and fighting over what we think s/he wants. I think we are meant to live a life of helping others, fulfilling our own dreams, and doing our best to love our neighbor. All the other thoughts are controls put on us by other men/women in order to for them to feel powerful.

I guess I just have a very open thought of what God/dess is supposed to be.

I don't think about it, much, to be able to answer the question. Mainly because I get confused enough thinking about things like that, besides christian believers are suposed to have faith in God and thats what our beliefs are mainly based on, I think. For those of us who are not too smart about learning, trusting in God is all we have.

What a lot of people don't understand is in the many versions of the Bible the Christ refers to the qualities of the creator inside us..Jesus himself said we are all heirs of the Father along with him...Jesus was not an exception he was an example of who we are and what we can achieve...he said as we believe so shall we do. The first Bible wasn't written for hundreds of years after the death of Jesus. People will say but they were inspired by God...but you know what I think it was them that said that..I didn't hear Gods voice come down and say ok I inspired this so listen. You cannot prove the validity of something by using itself. The teachings of the major religions basically all said the same thing originally but have been corrupted by years of translations and deliberate changes by people in control in order for people to behave the way the people in control wanted them to behave. That is where the fear factors in various doctrines have come from..One main thing the religions have in common but in thier own words is the golden rule. God/Goddess/Father/Mother what ever you choose to call it is love and so we are love. Love does not turn its back...God is also energy and so we are energy...all things are energy..we are energy experienced in physical form...If we are the creators heir even as Jesus why would He turn his back on us...He/She/It wouldn't!!! But I do respect people's rights to believe what they desire.

I wish you wouldn't put yourself down, ShyLady. Book learning isn't the only kind of smarts, and the fact that you post here and at Tolerance should tell you something more positive about yourself.

Now, first, let me admit (again) that I do not believe in God. That is my belief, and nobody else is required to share that belief with me.

But answering your point, nothing I said suggests that you do not have to trust in the God you believe in. What I said is that, if you are a believer, you should trust that a loving God would not be so cruel as to punish a good and honourable Muslim, Hindu or Pagan for honestly believing what they were honestly taught to believe. For that matter, such a God could not abandon or punish an atheist for not being able to believe, since God Himself ought to understand that for some minds, the evidence simply isn't there.

If, as you say, trusting in God is all you have, then I think it would be especially important to trust that your God could not possibly act the way that some religions say He would react, because that would mean a God that could not be trusted to be just, fair and loving.

Let me say that again, simply. If there is a just and loving God, He would be just and loving to everybody, not just to the those who have one or another faith-based view of Him. If such a God exists, then I think every thoughtful Christian would have to admit in his heart-of-hearts that this God would not punish or abandon a Muslim for not believing the Christian message.

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evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.

its weird that we arrive here with a need to be reconciled to god.

its true that we are faaaaaaar from perfect, but if god is the ideal I dont see why he requires reconcilliation. absolute love would just forgive us, take away our pain and problems and make stuff better.

" Let me say that again, simply. If there is a just and loving God, He would be just and loving to everybody, not just to the those who have one or another faith-based view of Him. If such a God exists, then I think every thoughtful Christian would have to admit in his heart-of-hearts that this God would not punish or abandon a Muslim for not believing the Christian message."

You are correct on that and that is that God will not judge you on your thoughts or words coming from your thoughts or verbal words whatever but will Judge you by your behaviour and reasons for that behaviour or simply put ,,,purity of intentions .

God lets us be who we want because although we are a presentation of Him
even when we sin He understands how that came about and if you understand or believe in God it matters not what Religious path gets you there but more by your reasons why .

Yes, it's a little strange that a creator who loves us so much is testing us or leaving us in pain, or even hiding from us! It doesn't make any sense that people would pray and seek over and over without getting a response. But consider this: what if it is WE who are hiding from Him? What if we, as extensions of God, are entertaining (like in a dream) our seperation from Him, in order to awaken and ultimately blend with the Divine in a physical world? I think that makes more sense, considering that most people who experience this awakening, describe the world they see afterwards as totally different and more "real" than the one we live in now.


God must have confidence in our ability to figure it out. We're very close to seeing how our thought creates reality, and it's not surprising that a world such as ours would arise from our inner conflicts and fears. I don't think we need forgiveness at all, but we do need to forgive in the sense that we need to let go of our thinking that keeps us in pain. If God removed the pain for us, what would we learn? But I think you're absolutely right - God's love is totally unconditional.

Hmmm...well, let's see if I can make some sense out of my thoughts so that they will hopefully come out in an understanding way.

I can understand why a early church, whether that be Christian, Muslim, or whatever, would put such a prerequisite requirement. Not to pick on Christianity at all, but I'll use that as an example. If Jesus is the ONLY path, since Christianity more or less holds the monopoly on the teachings of Jesus, it would follow that in order to follow that ONE path, a person would probably become Christian. That is a tremendous boost for the numbers game, and it allows the church greater control. It's almost political in nature.

Now, if as I believe, there may be many paths that lead to the same place, and it is the TEACHING of Jesus that is important, it allows more individuality for the practitioners, less power for the church, and at the same time, it teaches the same thing. Jesus wasn't the only one who taught the things he taught, and most religions are far more similar than they are different. But the church, IMO, and regardless of which church, doesn't want to relinquish power that easily.

The thing that I think I'd be asking is: Which is more important, the messenger or the message? Naturally, Jesus was and is important, but even he urged people to follow the message. Men come and go, even great ones, but the message they leave behind endures.

Further, I believe that the Grandfather is much like any loving and devoted parent. He wishes only the best for his children, not the worst. A loving parent won't intentionally put stumbling blocks in front of their children. On the other hand, they will sometimes not remove stumbling blocks, either, since that is the way we learn. So it wouldn't seem logical to put out obstacles that would mean that some people wouldn't have a chance, before they even started. It would be like me telling my kids that they can have a fabulous treasure, but only if they go out and buy a yellow Chevrolet and drive it a minimum of 1000 miles a year for 20 years. Placing that sort of restriction not only doesn't make sense, it also places an unneeded obstacle in their path, particularly if I want them to have the treasure in the first place. In fact, it would also be placing a restriction on ME.

I have had this thought that relates to this discussion. I will just through it out there. The only way to reconcile with god/divine is to reconcile with your self. Or simply put, "Ya ain't good with god, unless your right with yourself."