would you let your kid have free will to cross a road with heavy traffic?

no you probably wouldnt let them take part in a situation with such serious consequences

so why does god give us free will to potentially let us **** ourselves to hell.

we dont have much going for ourselves, we are worthy of hell, we make dumb mistakes all the time, we are clueless about darn near everything.

it seems irresponsible on gods part to let us fart around in this crazy world where terrible stuff happens to or because of our mistakes, and then he gives us little clues, but nothing that really proves hes there.

he appears to us pretending to be aman, supposedly.

and again in hallucinations, in thoughts, in random life events that we can possibly take as being "maybe a sign from god, but maybe not"

none of his proofs are REALLY valid evidence.

his spirit "breathes on us" sometimes

and many people with the spirit breathing on them have way diffwerent opinions. they might even not be in the same religion!

so he gives us free will to play around in this perilous world wi9th ultimate consequences of hell.

If I was god and I cared about humans, I wouldnt do that.

I would eliminate hell, I would make humans who couldnt get lost in their own mistakes and failures.

I would SHOW UP! God right now could keep every single person out of hell on the whole earth ever, if he just sahowed up in a real, tangible way.

not by influencing peoples thoughts according to their own perception, not by spirit breathing on them or tickling their heart, not by trying to get us to believe that a man was really him

no Im saying if god is god and he cares and doesnt want us in hell, then he could freaking touch down in the sahara 3000 feet tall with love beams radiating out into every human and he could say HI IM GOD I LOVE YOU AND THIS IS WHAT I WANT YOU GUYS TO FIX AND DO


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and another thing!

GOOD lets people tarnish his good name left and right. Just think about all the horiible things that have been done in his name

manifest destiny, african and native slavery, genocide, inquisition, witch burning, holy war in ireland, in africa, in east europe

dont you think god might want to come down and say. hey guys THESE ACTS ARE NOT DONE IN MY NAME, KEEP MY NAME OUT OF YOUR MOUTH WITH THESE ACTS

for example he could right now say I DO NOT ENDORSE what bush is doing killing hundreds a day and leading men to their deaths.

but no he allows his name to be used to justify some of the worst crap ever!

what gives

and again, how is it respoonsible on gods part that we haVE THE FREE WILL TO **** OURSELVES ETERNALLY... thats an example of him putting us into a catastrophically perilous situation. and, obviously, we arent all choosing him, so tons of us are going to hell

you would hopew he could do sometihng about that, but it doesnt seem like he wants to. he seems ok with it.

how can this god be trusted?

It sounds like you are upset and angry. I understand your feelings, I have been there. I have had others share their ideas on this subject and the answers were never soothing. I had to find them on my own, and you will probably have to also. With that in mind, I will try and answer what you are asking, but it may not be very good.

God gave us a gift of free will. I think that some of us abuse it with war and other atrocities, but most of us are good and are trying to live a good life. This of course, is done to the best of our abilities, and since each of us has different abilities, we are all trying differently.

You mentioned qualities found in good parents, and I also think of God like a parent. But a part of parenting is letting go and allowing your offspring to "sink or swim" on their own. God gave us the tools to live "right" all we have to do is use them, but using them is a trial and error, and we can't find out how they work by instruction alone.

I hope this helps you. I am sorry if it doesn't

Maybe free will is God.

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InterfaithForums.com-Where your ideas and beliefs count.

I understand your argument, and have wondered the same things. To use biblical language - yes god gave us free will, and yes humanity has exploited and abused it; however, god gave us another gift that is often blatantly ignored leading to the many atrocities you mentioned. This simple gift, that i feel, links us more to god then anything else, and if used in conjunction with free will would help minimize much of human suffering. It is the simple gift of human reason. Think about it, all the harm we do to ourselves and this earth doesn't really make any sense . . . perhaps, when it is said we are made in god's image, it is not literal but metaphorical for human reason? The combination of reason and free will are the foundation on which we are suppose to build "the kingdom of heaven" - leaving us entirely responsible in the process of salvation. Sadly it looks like we are closer to building our own hell, then a universal heaven.

P.S. I generally shy away from biblical terminology but given your statements I felt it the most fittings - so forgive me if I'm a little fuzzy.

Precisely! You are not god. And neither is the one you keep calling on, or at the very least he doesn't "care" about humans.
You have the free will to do it because it can't happen. There is no hell. You don't get ****ed. Your free will comes with a lot less risk than you imagine.

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evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.

De Mighty Shadow,

Your questioning all these things about God is part of free will.

There are some Christians( Swedenborgians) who believe God wants all people to go to heaven, and that hell is created for those who do not want to spend eternity with God.
It is not created as a place of punishment, but a place for those who want an existance away from God, created because of God's love for all humans and mans choice.

I believe the questions you ask are part of your struggling to find a belief and a faith you can agree with. I think most people ask themselves similiar questions and everyone comes up with their own answer.

If you are interested in a more loving form of Christianity:

From the church website :"The Swedenborgian Church is an open-minded, forward looking Christian church drawing its faith from the Bible as illuminated by the teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772)."

"All religion relates to life, and the life of religion is to do good."
(Swedenborg, Doctrine Of Life)

Below is a link to two of their websites

http://www.swedenborg.org/beliefs.cfm

http://www.swedenborgiancommunity.org/

~peace123

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Let the beauty of what you love, be what you do ~Rumi

Lord is substratum of the whole creation and hence forms base. Without Him creation cannot sustain. Lord created the universe for entertainment. He has given free will to all the human beings to do whatever they like. But, the results will follow the deeds. So, He is indirectly controlling, that is to say that enjoyment for good deeds and misery for bad deeds. Misery is to bring realisation only and not to repeat the same bad deed. Otherwise, He is not responsible for one's deeds.

Creation is in Lord but Lord is not the creation. But such a Lord can enter creation at the request of devotees who wants Him only and His service. He comes down to give four fortunes to His devotees (to talk, to touch, co-living and to serve).