Just some thoughts on what's called 'fruitless action'. That is, eating broccoli because you enjoy it not because it's good for you. Walking around the park not because you ought to get your excercise but because you want to, you enjoy it. I love the notion of acting in life not to get anything out of it, but simply because it is your action at the time. Nobody ever knows if an event is good or bad anyway. You fall off a horse and break your leg- bad. But the next day the army starts drafting- so it was good that you broke your leg. Pain is bad / pleasure is good. But too much pleasure can have negative consequences and pain can have postive outcomes...

The notion that saying, "Way to go skippy", is a reward on a subtle psychological level so you're a player in the good ol' reward/punishment game and are just as bound as we are whether you want to be or not, to me, seems a little silly. It's true... but only as true and as relevant as you insist that it is. When I water flowers I'm not rewarding them for a good day of growing. If the flowers had a human mind like the child does I would be! Would I? As long as Skippy doesn't do the thing I'm saying 'way to go' for, in order to acheive my saying 'way to go', and as long as I'm not consciously only saying 'way to go' as to give him some encouragement or for some other conceived/contrived conscious purpose but rather simply because I naturally want to, then it's not really on a reward/punishment level. Birds do not sing for my benefit but when they do I might say 'way to go' and 'thank you'. And not because I want to reward them, but because it's just a natural expression. Some psychology professor can assure me that reward is what's going on, and this can be well true, but it need not be uhm, operative?

As far as raising children with or without religion... Of course, as has already been well said, you do not need religion to have morals and ethics. And some of the "worst" have been raised very religiously. I think the entire notion of raising a kid should be very suspect in the first place by the way. Perhaps "let grow" works better and could serve as a better model for us. You never stop growing. A 40 year old is but a child to an 80 year old. The idea that we are complete, as formed, or "raised", ready to be picked, adults, at or around a certain age number is absurd to me.

Dear T.C.,
I must have offened you somehow for you to react, and I am really sorry for that. It was not my intention to harm anyone by posting what I believe to be true or/and how I raise my kids. I KNOW for a fact that every parent does his/her best with what ever knowledge and understanding he/she has at any given time.

I am a little disappointed to find that this forum is about valuing all peoples ideas and beliefs, but yet it seems that some moderators have built a new belief in that. Valuing other peoples beliefs does not mean that one must change their own belief, but to accept that others have a different belief and seeing THAT as perfect.

__________________
May your awareness be perfection

I think you missed part of my point, 41. I said it was a stage specific learning technique. As a healthy adult we grow through this to the point we don't need the system anymore. It is meant for a juvenile development. The problem with most traditional religions in the West is that they never really developed spiritual education beyond this stage much. They are still relying on the reward/punishment scheme using mythic stories as their example. Children don't develop in a healthy sense to the higher levels of consciousness structure until they first build that base. Its like building a ladder and trying to skip a few rungs. It makes it much harder to climb if you don't take the time to properly build each one. Now, the top rung will give you a dramatically different view than the third rung, but if you completely skip it, the ladder is much more difficult to climb and not nearly as sturdy.

-TC

I was not offended, I'm very dispassionate about such things, just trying to make sure I am understood. I think your parenting techniques sound great. What I was talking about has very little to do with beliefs, anymore than learning math. Its just a way humans learn. The teaching method may differ, but the stage is the same. I apologize if it was taken in a different manner.

-TC