InterfaithForums

Welcome to the InterfaithForums forums.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact support.

Arcade Support Us FAQ Calendar vBRadio Quiz
Go Back   InterfaithForums > Debate Forum > Religious Debate
Home Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Religious Debate Debate religions and religious topics.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 10th June 2007, 06:12 PM
Travis Clementsmith's Avatar
Macramaer
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 2,126
Coins: 229,446.31
Bank: 185,381.01
Total Coins: 414,827.32
Donate
Karma:1562
Travis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant futureTravis Clementsmith has a brilliant future


Letter to Michael Newdow

Recently, the Deist Alliance responded to a request from Michael Newdow for quotes from the Founding Fathers referencing Deism and God in a specific format. I was the principle author on our response:

Quote:
Here it is that the religion of Deism is superior to the Christian Religion. It is free from all those invented and torturing articles that shock our reason or injure our humanity, and with which the Christian religion abounds. Its creed is pure, and sublimely simple. It believes in God, and there it rests.

It honors reason as the choicest gift of God to man, and the faculty by which he is enabled to contemplate the power, wisdom and goodness of the Creator displayed in the creation; and reposing itself on His protection, both here and hereafter, it avoids all presumptuous beliefs, and rejects, as the fabulous inventions of men, all books pretending to revelation.

-Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

Dear Michael Newdow,

We have followed in the news your court cases and efforts to win separation of religion and government, which we hope persons from all religious backgrounds would support due to fairness. We have noticed that the Justices who ruled against you in the Pledge Of Allegiance cases have conceded the point that "under God" is a reference to "ceremonial Deism" that was influential in the founding of the country (and not to Christianity), though the pledge and the phrase "under God" do not go back that far.

We are pleased you have contacted us seeking specific colonial American Deistic references to "a God who sets things in motion and then sits back, not interfering in human affairs", and we recognize that you might be trying to connect the non-interfering beliefs with not being "under God". We are providing you with quotes and sources showing colonial American leaders admitting to being Deists or influenced by Deism, and also a few quotes indicating the non-interfering God ideals, and will let you apply them as you wish. We are doubtful, however, or at least inconclusive that Deists of any time period or type; historical, classic, or modern, would completely deny being "under God", either directly or indirectly.

Deism is a theological subcategory of belief comparable to theism more than it is to Christianity. As such, it has many different interpretations and flavors. It is somewhat difficult to get two Deists to agree on a concise definition as the nature of the belief promotes debate and discussion rather than seeking accord and uniformity. It is this distinction Deists often refer to and champion as Reason. Because the term “God” was often associated with theism, Deists often used other descriptive words to differentiate their position. Supreme Being, Nature’s God, Providence, and Divine Author are but a few of these terms.

The definition you seek is the common one given today by dictionary people, and Deists who thought along these lines would be more inclined to use terms such as First Cause or Prime Mover. Very few Deists of the Colonial period would say something like this. Thomas Paine comes close:

Quote:
The only idea man can affix to the name of God is that of a first cause, the cause of all things. And incomprehensible and difficult as it is for a man to conceive what a first cause is, he arrives at the belief of it from the tenfold greater difficulty of disbelieving it. It is difficult beyond description to conceive that space can have no end; but it is more difficult to conceive an end. It is difficult beyond the power of man to conceive an eternal duration of what we call time; but it is more impossible to conceive a time when there shall be no time.

In like manner of reasoning, everything we behold carries in itself the internal evidence that it did not make itself Every man is an evidence to himself that he did not make himself; neither could his father make himself, nor his grandfather, nor any of his race; neither could any tree, plant, or animal make itself; and it is the conviction arising from this evidence that carries us on, as it were, by necessity to the belief of a first cause eternally existing, of a nature totally different to any material existence we know of, and by the power of which all things exist; and this first cause man calls God.

-The Age of Reason


But the dictionary definition has more in common with French Deism, along the lines of Diderot (the universe is Deity, or pandeism) than it does with Colonial American Deism. To even speak of “Colonial American Deism” is too broad a stroke in itself, but we will for sake of brevity.

Colonial American Deism is more of a hybrid between English and French Deism. Whereas English Deism sought a theological outlook that ran in accord with Newtonian physics yet retaining its non-revelatory Deity (the universe is the creation of Deity, or monodeism), American Deism expanded into a much more political flavor. Because the impetus for liberty was the cause of the American Revolution, American Deists believed in a Deity that afforded that political and intellectual liberty. It was contrary to Christianity because European governments declared part of their right to rule from divine favor. In this sense, Colonial American Deists often saw Deity as the source of virtues such as Wisdom, Justice, Reason, Liberty, and Nature. If Plato were to quiz the Colonial American Deists with, “What is the source of Liberty?” the answer would be “Deity”. In this symbiotic relationship, Deity is the source of Liberty, so exercising one’s individual liberty is the best way to honor Deity. If Deity is the source of Reason, exercising one’s individual reason is the best way to honor Deity, and so on.

We know of no formal correspondence in which major Deist political figures declare themselves as Deists. First, it was considered rude by the intellectual elite, an imposition on someone else's free conscience. Second, and more practically, politics is about getting elected, so why alienate any possible voter over something personal like religious or philosophical position. Such Deists were more likely to use the metaphors that any theist wouldn’t object to, such as:

George Washington:

Quote:
Every man, conducting himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience.

- letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789

Quote:
We must endeavour to deserve better of Providence, and, I am persuaded, she will smile upon us.

-letter to Thomas Nelson Jr., November 8, 1777

Quote:
The ways of Providence being inscrutable, and the justice of it not to be scanned by the shallow eye of humanity, nor to be counteracted by the utmost efforts of human power or wisdom, resignation, and as far as the strength of our reason and religion can carry us, a cheerful acquiescence to the Divine Will, is what we are to aim.

-letter to Colonel Bassett, Apr. 25, 1773

Quote:
By the all-powerful dispensations of Providence, I have been protected beyond all human probability and expectation; for I had four bullets through my coat, and two horses shot under me, yet escaped unhurt, altho' death was levelling my companions on every side.

-letter to John A. Washington, Jul. 18, 1755

John Adams:

Quote:
"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"


--letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815


Quote:
"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."


--A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America", 1787-88

Thomas Jefferson:

Quote:
"I should then take a view of the deism and ethics of the Jews, and show in what a degraded state they were, and the necessity they presented of a reformation. I should proceed to a view of the life, character, & doctrines of Jesus, who sensible of incorrectness of their ideas of the Deity, and of morality, endeavored to bring them to the principles of a pure deism, and juster notions of the attributes of God, to reform their moral doctrines to the standard of reason, justice & philanthropy, and to inculcate the belief of a future state. This view would purposely omit the question of his divinity, & even his inspiration."

-from Letters "Jesus, Socrates, And Others" To Dr. Joseph Priestley, Washington, Apr. 9, 1803

Quote:
Fix Reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than of blindfolded fear.

-Letters "The Homage Of Reason" To Peter Carr, Paris, Aug. 10, 1787

Quote:
And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.

-Letters "Calvin And Cosmology" To John Adams, Monticello, April 11, 1823

So, we have to turn to prominent Deists who did not seek such political ambitions. Of those, there are three that first of all said they were Deists and second wrote about what they thought a Deistic conception of God was. Those three would be Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine and Ethan Allen.

Benjamin Franklin:

Quote:
Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's Lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.

-Autobiography

Benjamin Franklin was asked point blank about his religion and answered:

Quote:
"You desire to know something of my religion...Here is my creed. I believe in one God, creator of the universe. That he governs it by his providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable service we render to him is doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal..."

-Autobiography


He goes on to say he doubts the divinity of Jesus but considers his moral structure the best to have ever been. From this we can discern that Franklin believes that God certainly created the universe, but what "governing by providence" entails, is open to debate. Some would argue, that Providence is that self-governing mechanism, impervious to human wishes and hopes. Others might contend that Providence is the very "will of God" and is therefore not removed from the goings on. Most Deists would say it is more of the former than the later, but it is not as succinct as the dictionary would have us believe.

Thomas Paine:

Quote:
I believe in one God and no more....I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

-The Age of Reason

Paine's Deism emphasizes the natural Creation and the liberty of conscience. To our knowledge, Paine's conception of Deity isn't one who just retires from the scene, but is rather like the clue giver hoping you can find him. Creation offers the clues, Reason gives you your deductive ability to discover. Without a free conscience, such a game would not be very exciting.

So, God lays out the clues:

Quote:
"Do we want to contemplate his power? We see it in the immensity of the Creation. Do we want to contemplate his wisdom? We see it in the unchangeable order by which the incomprehensible whole is governed! Do we want to contemplate his munificence? We see it in the abundance with which he fills the earth. Do we want to contemplate his mercy? We see it in his not withholding that abundance even from the unthankful. In fine, do we want to know what God is? Search not the book called the Scripture, which any human hand might make, but the Scripture called the Creation."

-The Age of Reason


And it is up to us to figure out what they mean:

Quote:
"It is only by the exercise of reason that man can discover God. Take away that reason, and he would be incapable of understanding anything"

-The Age of Reason


But whether or not God is retired, recluse, or active cannot be entirely known:

Quote:
"Reason can discover this one [that God exists], but it falls infinitely short in discovering the whole of the other [God's qualities]."

-The Age of Reason


Quote:
"The existence of an Almighty Power is sufficently demonstrated to us, though we cannot conceive, as it is impossible we should, the nature and manner of its existence."

-The Age of Reason

However, Paine is a fan of science and allows a bit of that transference here:

Quote:
That which is now called natural philosophy, embracing the whole circle of science, of which astronomy occupies the chief place, is the study of the works of God, and of the power and wisdom of God in His works, and is the true theology.

Every science has for its basis a system of principles as fixed and unalterable as those by which the universe is regulated and governed. Man cannot make principles; he can only discover them.

The true Deist has but one Deity, and his religion consists in contemplating the power, wisdom, and benignity of the Deity in his works, and in endeavoring to imitate him in everything moral, scientifical, and mechanical."

-The Age of Reason

Ethan Allen:

Quote:
I have generally been denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian, except mere infant baptism make me one; and as to being a Deist, I know not, strictly speaking, whether I am one or not, for I have never read their writings; mine will therefore determine the matter;

-Reason, The Only Oracle of Man

Ethan Allen comes closer to what you are seeking. He refers to the Creation as a "stupendous machine", which is contemporary to a Newtonian view of the universe.

Quote:
"And when we reflect that the blessings of life are derived from, and dependent on, the properties, qualities, constructions, proportions and movements, of that stupendous machine, we gratefully acknowledge the divine beneficence."

-Reason, The Only Oracle of Man


And, he is against the idea of predestination, indicating we are moral free agents within this machine as evidenced by his Chapter 2, Section 4 title in his book, Reason, the Only Oracle of Man:

Quote:
THE PROVIDENCE OF GOD DOES NOT INTERFERE WITH THE AGENCY OF MAN


If we conclude that Allen agrees that Providence indicates a "self-governing mechanism", a "stupendous machine", he is quite explicitly saying here that the choices of man have large degree of independence within it. Whether that independence of action indicates an absentee God removed from his creation is difficult to tell. Our deduction says this is not what Allen has in mind.

In summary, we would be cautious in using the dictionary definition. One thing Christian groups attempt to do in discrediting the idea that many of the prominent founders of the country were indeed Deists, is to pull that very definition out of the dictionary and contrast it to the writings of these men. While some Deists may be very comfortable with the dictionary definition, not all Deists are. We do not think the men of this period would be either. We are unsure if this helps or not, but at least we are confident that this should give you a better feel for these men and their conceptions about Deism and Deity.

The Deist Alliance
http://deistalliance.org/
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Coins Per Thread View: 1.00
Coins Per Thread: 15.00
Coins Per Reply: 5.00




All times are GMT. The time now is 04:41 AM.


Copyright ©, 2005-2008 Interfaithforums.com. All Rights Reserved

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.1.0