Is atheism a necessary part of spiritual growth? Is it really about letting go of all former concepts and ideas about God? And can it be just one more step in the realization of our spiritual journey? Don't we need those voices that speak out against the Big Ego In The Sky?

...if it is an "essential" step. It is certainly a step I went through, and passed through. (I gave it up at about the same time that I realized it was not necessary for me to rationally understand everything, in order for everything to be.)

Actually, in many ways, I think that atheism as a spiritual crutch is a pretty poor thing; it rattles and clanks through every discussion about belief, about deity, religion, morality/ethics, cosmology, eschatology, etc. It's an easy out, a way to refute others' arguments without every really thinking about them, a way to question others, without every attemtpting to really examine oneself. It's such a "sewer" of an ideology; and that reflects its essential sophomoric character.

Some people do seem to avoid formal atheism. That, however, is not to say that they do not question or doubt. The Dark Night of the Soul is, probably, a necessary step on the path to spiritual maturity. Outwardly it might appear similar to atheism (it certainly does to me, at times, when I am beset), but there is an underlying difference.

Let me use this analogy: The atheist looks in the bucket, and decides the well is empty. In the Dark Night of the Soul, we look in the well, and see that it is empty, but we do not conclude that water doesn't exist on that basis....no matter how much we fear we are in a desert.

"Be seeing you..."

__________________
Grassaf, Eolas

Now that's interesting, because I also don't need to rationally understand everything in order for it to be. But I go one step further ... I don't need to invent an explanation [god] for that which remains inexplicable. It may not be true of you, but I think you'll find that for a great many people, "god" is that which they still can't explain.

I'll go even further and suggest that many, many suppositions are simply made, willy-nilly, about things for which we have as yet no formal understanding. A terrific example is consciousness, which to read Baars, Blackmore, Dennett, Crick, Edelman/Tononi, Zeman, James, Hofstadter, the Journal of Consciousness Studies and Consciousness and Cognition, and much else besides, is a thorny problem. No problem, say many on this very site. Let's just suppose that consciousness is all, exists without something to exist on (even though we can't actually demonstrate anything even remotely like that), that it/we invented itself/us, and Bob's your uncle!

Brilliant! While it may not be necessary to rationally understand everything, I don't know that it's all that helpful to make stuff up out of nothing.
That would probably be true, if atheism were a spiritual crutch. Atheism doesn't pretend to any such thing, just makes the assumption that there are no deities around. I won't go so far as to suggest that an imaginary crutch can't be effective for the theist. Just that it won't be effective for quite as long as he generally expects.
And that, for the record, is very precisely how the atheist sees deistic belief -- an easy way out by simply ascribing everything not understood to "god" and dusting off one's hands. I am sorry that you don't think that I, for example, have spent any time really attempting to examine myself. It appears that you've made the rather facile (and perhaps egocentric) assumption that if I had, I would have arrived at conclusions much like yours.
Thank you. Always pleasant to hear your considered assessments of one's character. "Us and them" with them always the bad guys, eh? Why are theists so very often given to name-calling? Is this a religious attribute?
On this basis, the atheist goes on to look for another well, wherein he may just find something to drink. What will the theist do, sit and wait? How often, in this world in which we live, will that avail, I wonder?

__________________
evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.

We continue to speak past each other as if we belong to different species.

Statrei


It will always be this way. Understanding human differences and respecting them rather than denying them can reveal a great deal. but collectively we are on this "everything is the same" kick which assures the continued absence of realistic communication

Or, do I just have to ask your permission if my opinion is different from yours?

Angeleyes asked :

I was answering that question, for myself. You seem not to have noticed that I began my response by saying "I think...", and that my example was myself.

Are you saying that my opinion about my own reasons for rejecting something are not valid?? I would scarecely presume to say to you that I know your mind better than you do...but I guess you atheists aren't trammelled by such considerations; apparently the power to read minds comes along with a rejection of deity!

Amazing.

And then you have the nerve to say....


I guess I must be "superstitious" since I have no "formal understanding" of how you could read my mind.



Since the question is, (let me repeat) "Is atheism a necessary part of spiritual growth?" Then I think my responsse -- no it's not, it's a crutch -- is acceptable. And, frankly, you not agreeing with what I said is neither here nor there. I will make this more explicit, however, and say that Atheism is a crutch for people who lack a certain type of imagination and the capacity to believe.

I will repeat what I said, Atheism allows people to reject others beliefs and arguments without actually considering them, or considering them in a superficial and frequently carcicatured way. And that superficial rejection is, quite evidently, predicated on a miserable failure of imagination.

(BTW, the fact that you, or Douglas Adams (for example) are wonderfully imaginative in some areas has nothing to do with whether you lack belief and imaginiation in this, particular area. That's not unusual; lots of great musicians were miserable painters, or poets... they lacked the specific imagination to accomplish those things.)


Frankly, I do not give a darn whether you have or not. I never mentioned you, and what I said is not a personal attack, no matter how much you want it to be one.

I do not find many Atheist thinkers to be very self-reflective; that is, I do not find evidence of that in their writings -- the only way I have to know what most of them believe. Perhaps they are tortured souls that agonize over their every utterance and motivation, but Richard Dawkins, for example, does not seem that way.


And that is a good example of being sophomoric; you took a VERY GENERAL remark, about atheist arguments, as an attack on you. It isn't. I should be able to reject a philosophical argument, without you immediately assuming I'm attacking you in some way. No possible reading can turn what I said into an attack on you. It's all in your head, I'm afraid; you just want to be a victim, it seems to me...and I suggest your remark is good evidence of that statement.


No. based on your response, it would seem an Atheist would loudly proclaim how the theist was attacking him for saying there might be water somewhere else, and suggesting that the lack of water in his bucket is not evidence of of whetehr water exists or not.

"Be seeing you..."

__________________
Grassaf, Eolas

The subject was atheism. You said, and I quote:
That, the way I read it, is a definitive statement, lacking any conditionals or verbs in the subjunctive mood. As I am an atheist who posts on this site, a fact of which you are aware, it would also seem to apply to me.

If the subject were Christianity, and I had written that I had been a Christian once, but eventually came to the conclusion that, "It's such a "sewer" of an ideology; and that reflects its essential sophomoric character," would there be no Christian who would take that as an offensive remark against something which they feel defines them?

If that's truly the case, then I am sorry I took offense. At the same time, however, I think that we should henceforward all feel perfectly free to make whatever such remarks, couched in the same declarative language, about any belief system we'd like.

__________________
evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.

Irrelevant. A totally specious argument since I am not a Christian (as you should know by now), and am not speaking for a Christian, all Christians or any Christian. I am speaking only for myeslef. As you are well aware.


And, actually, I have read such remarks by atheists about Christianity. And you have too, they're not uncommon. It''s funny how things become "offensive" when they're on the other foot, isn't it?


And I am sorry that you find someone's account, of their own spiritual reaction to something they once espoused, offensive.


No, it wasn't!! The subject , as I understand it, is Atheism a ncessary stage in spiritual development.


And why should I have to be more conditional about a matter of my own, personal, history, other than to say it is about me...which I did?

And, in that regard, let me point out the following:


In four short paragraphs, that should be enough for anyone who can read to see that the statements relate to the person speaking, are his opinion. I do not think anything else needs to be said.

You are, purely and simply, off base.

__________________
Grassaf, Eolas

I hope you guys are enjoying yourselves, but I worry that such talk will slip into serious fighting, and I would hate to see the forum go that way. E.H., we ALL enjoy your posts, and I would almost hate to see you get saved, just because you might not be as much fun. You are brilliant.

As for the rest of you: Atheism a step towards spirituality?? Spirituality a step towards atheism?? They both happen! The truth will be found to have elements from both. Ask not whether something spoken is false, but in what sense it is true. We have a way to go yet. Don't freak out along the way.

__________________
I, folks. I'm just visiting. The prayer stick is coming along, but like everything, it is far more complicated than when I started. I'll be supporting 5 different languages, 6 different religions, in addition to several audio routines.

I'm not sure why my personal account was attacked in that way.

Or, actually, I am pretty sure, but hope I am wrong.

"Be seeing you...

__________________
Grassaf, Eolas