The Baha'i view is that "man" is not restricted to the earth... and that the goal of the creation is sentient life just as a flower we can say is the "result" of the growth of a tree. So the period of time when the flower appears is very brief when compared to the development say of the tree. Here are some quotes from the Baha'i Writings relating to the issue:

"...[T]he earth has not always existed,...". (SAQ 152)

"...[T]he universe is not limited to this terrestrial globe." (SAQ 152)

"...[i]t cannot be said there was a time when man was not." (SAQ 196)

"...[i]t cannot be imagined that the worlds of existence, whether the stars or this earth...were without man!" (SAQ 197)

When we say "man" we do not necessarily have the concept of "man" as he is known today... maybe sentient life would be more appropriate a term.

- Art

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"it benefits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God."
- Johannes Kepler

I wouldn't say it's a "problem" but more of a "question".





Maybe.





Bad example, imo. Let's get maybe a bit closer by saying you bought the ticket at 10:30 this morning but can't use it until the same date in 2108 and only you are on the ticket. IOW, we have to remember that billions of people have preceded us over the millions of years of our existence, including those who would have no clue about Judaism, Christianity, or Islam today. Weren't they important enough to get the messages of what God wanted them to do? And why would God supposedly only give His revelations to the people who inhabit one small area of the world-- the Middle East? Aren't people living elsewhere important to God?

Obviously if there's a God(s), we would have to assume that we would have only the scantest understanding, if we had one at all, of what He?She/They are like, so that's why I cannot use the word "problem". But what I can ask is why do you think it has been so late in the "program" whereas us humans were around and the morality of Torah, the N.T., and the Qur'an began to be taught so late?

These questions certainly will not get at the root question as to whether there's a God(s) or not, so this really isn't the issue I'm bringing up here. What I am assuming, as far as this discussion is concerned, is that there is a God, and my question is centering around why do you think God delayed creating and educating us humans? Or did He?

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"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge."-- Einstein

Interesting. I wish I had more time when we stayed in Haifa to go to the Baha'i temple there. We rode by it, but it was too late in the evening. Looked beautiful from the outside at least. Have you been there by chance?

BTW, I know that the Baha'i were being pretty heavily persecuted in Iran, but I haven't heard much about them in probably over a decade. What can you tell me?

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"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge."-- Einstein

Why do we just accept that what we see is real ?

Is this the World God created ?


How do we know that ?

If God is LIFE why do things we see in this World die ?


Perhaps what we see with eyes is not what is there ?


You will after all "not see God with your eyes"

I don't think God is never changing. Maybe very slow to changing based on His own time line...

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When a man sleeps in his bed, his soul leaves him to soar above, each soul according to its own way.......
The Zohar

But why are you supposing that written revelations are God's only revelations? Did the people of the Western Hemisphere have no revelation from God until the arrival of European missionaries?

Very carefully thought out example, actually. Much like your argument over Creation, the railway was, incrementally, developed over a long period of time: iron had to be smelted into steel, rails had to be laid, schedules coordinated, reservation systems perfected, staff trained, etc. The existence of the ticket in the passenger's hand is but a penultimate event in a long sequence. No matter how important the trip someone is taking, it is merely one event in a series of events.

You are suggesting that, somehow, the fact that humans are the penultimate event in a sequence (culmintaing in our present day atheists, I suppose ) somehow invalidates the act of Creation, because humans believe themselves to be more important than the rest of Creation.

But that is EXACTLY the same as saying that a ticket in the passenger's hand invalidates the building of the railway system becuse the passenger belives his/her trip more important than everyone elses' trip. And this is, I'm afraid poppycock.




Not being Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, I would be one of those (except I choose to be informed about such things). But, so what? The fact that millions of people have taken the train to Chicago before you does not invalidate your trip, does it?



You are assuming that the gods do not take thought for them; I would say that is arrogance, even among the Abrahamic. After all, does it not say that YHWH considers even the sparrow? Does it not Jeshuah say that his father's house has many rooms, and that there are other sheep, not of this flock?


What, in any of that, makes anyone think that they know exactly what their god purposes?



Yes, and you can ask why the ancient Greeks never invented the microprocessor, too... it just doesn't seem to be a very fruitful line of inquiry, to me.



But I think I have made it very clear I do not -- cannot -- think that there was any delay. The delay is in your mind, and your mind only. It is like asking why sunset does not immediately follow sunrise; why not avoid all those long, boring daylight hours and get straight to the "big event". It is a mistaken point of view of such mind-numbing proportions that it trivializes far more significant obejections.

Or that's how it seems to me....

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Grassaf, Eolas

So you wanna be a tough guy ,,, eh pinski,,,,?

Oops , wrong thread ,,,

Sorry ,

Oh while l'm here ,,

Hi pinski .

metis wrote:

Interesting. I wish I had more time when we stayed in Haifa to go to the Baha'i temple there. We rode by it, but it was too late in the evening. Looked beautiful from the outside at least. Have you been there by chance?

My reply:

Yes I've been on what we Baha'is call "pilgrimage" to Haifa and surrounding areas like Akka and Bahji.. this was away back in 1975. The building on Mount Carmel though is not a "Temple" actually but called the Shrine of the Bab and it's where the remains of the Bab and also Abdul-Baha are interred. There are Houses of Worship though on most continents.. The major one in America is at Wilmette, Illinois. Anyone can visit the Shrine of the Bab and or the various Houses of Worship.

Mettis:

BTW, I know that the Baha'i were being pretty heavily persecuted in Iran, but I haven't heard much about them in probably over a decade. What can you tell me?

My reply:

The Baha'i Faith continues to be illegal in Iran and Baha'is are arrested, imprisoned and some years ago many were executed. You can get an update on the Baha'i site here at the Inter-faith Forums at

Baha`i - InterfaithForums

and "search the Baha'i Writings" is now available in our IF Library!

-Art

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"it benefits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God."
- Johannes Kepler

Why didn't they develop their own moral code then? (I.e., Assuming they didn't, which is probably a poor assumption.)

Had they developed a moral code that was "divinely inspired," then I'm sure they would have developed a primitive notion of a spiritual life that comes from having a moral code. Similarly, as humans evolved our species found the need for a moral code that suited for us to live in social and urban conditions. Moral codes are like mathematics, they are discovered and not invented. There are only so many strategies that work effectively for our species in a certain structure (viz, family structures, social structures, urban environments, etc.), and when the need arose (i.e., humans began to suffer from the meaninglessness of their existence), God came down in a cloud (metaphorically speaking) and spoke by divine revelation.

Why did it take so long for this to happen? Because it took that long for evolution to require the conscious universe (on earth) to have that need. Once that need arose, God revealed the divine laws that answered those needs. (I'm sorry for misunderstanding your original question. I thought the question was why doesn't everything just happen at once, or better, why didn't God just create the end and skip the beginning and middle.)