You forgot marriage.

Just kidding-- been married to the same VERY tolerant lady for 41 years.

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"Always aim at complete harmony of thought and word and deed. Always aim at purifying your thoughts and everything will be well."-- Mahatma Gandhi

Metis...

have enjoyed your humor on other threads too.

Because life is unfair, we invent life after death to square it all up? I don't think so, and it is as repulsive a notion as anything I've heard. Just another promise that can't be verified. I would have expected much better of a deity.
What about non-Christians? There are a few, you know. They go by names like atheist, Buddhist, Jews, Muslim, Jain, Hindu and many more. Yet the Christian religion says all of them are going to hell for not believing the Christian religion -- EVEN IF THEY NEVER, EVER HEARD IT!

How's that for justice from a loving god? It is without a doubt the most outrageously cruel garbage in all of man's many religious notions.
That's a poor reason to accept hell. There are many things that lots of people accept as true which I do not.

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evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.

What? The title of this thread is "Is Teaching About Hell Cruel?" One of the points in the opening thread was, "Why do we not condemn this despicable notion of a punishing god in the strongest possible terms?"

EH used his extreme case to demonstrate that hell is a cruel teaching, when I see nothing cruel about God punishing a Hitler--which there have been many in the history of humanity (most of whom are not so well known).


I don't know what you thought of the meaning of this thread was supposed to be about. I thought it was as the title suggested that the teaching of hell is cruel.


And, btw, that is their prerogative. It's not cruel that they believe and teach what they believe to be true, just like it is not cruel of the atheist to teach people that there is no inherent meaning in life other than what they wish to make up to cope.


Well, I don't believe we earn our way into heaven by deeds, nor do I believe we earn our way into hell by atrocities. However, I do believe hell is an important teaching of Christianity and one I am not in the least ashamed of.

I sense thought control on this forum sometimes...

EH...

"Because life is unfair, we invent life after death to square it all up? I don't think so, and it is as repulsive a notion as anything I've heard."

Repulsive yes, but nontheless one of the reasons for a hell concept. More repulsive to most i think is the idea things do not even up and balance out. That would imply would it not, that life has no grand purpose and no grand destiny for man? And a divine being would cease to be a caretaker, leaving man to his own devices. To many this would be harder to bear then the hell concept.

EH...

"What about non-Christians? There are a few, you know. They go by names like atheist, Buddhist, Jews, Muslim, Jain, Hindu and many more. Yet the Christian religion says all of them are going to hell for not believing the Christian religion -- EVEN IF THEY NEVER, EVER HEARD IT!"

Exactly my point. It's all about appeasement according to one's own particulair christian rote, if another professed christian cannot avoid hell what chance does a non christian have? To put a fine point on it there are some chrisitan sects who believe there will be a chance at resurrection for those who have been ignorant of christianity, thier own brand of it of course. And, Buddhists believe thier brand of hell is also democratic enough to admit not only thier own who cannot fullfill the precepts but also those who have never heard of Buddhism, ditto Hindu, tho there is a chance to redeem oneself thru rebirth.

EH...
"How's that for justice from a loving god? It is without a doubt the most outrageously cruel garbage in all of man's many religious notions."

Agreed, agreed and agreed again. To the point at one time i felt what man calls God should be indicted for it, and looked for ways and means to do it.

From my previouse post on the subject:

"By the way, not to pick on just the christians, there is also a Buddhist hell, and a Hindu hell, tho one is not sentenced there by a big boss weighing one's pluses and debits on a scale."

EH response....

"That's a poor reason to accept hell. There are many things that lots of people accept as true which I do not."

There is, in most minds only one reason to accept hell, and that is the opposite, heaven, the two concepts are often more then not taught together. Heaven is the big reward for pain and suffering and devotion in the face of those ,the end purpose of one's well lived life.

There's that word 'purpose' again.

The superstitiouse idea of punishment from an unknown being is so ingrained even today among well educated and savvy people there can be a temporary 'slippage' into that mode, i saw it this afternoon in a man's commentary on the natural disasters of the past few days. He caught himself almost immediatly but i thought it was interesting.

Gods, made in man's image so it might explain the unexplainable and be approachable in a way man understood from his own dealings with others of his kind, and so it might sanction some actions, governments and laws, rewarded by heaven if obeyed and punished by hell if not. Thus would man be taken care of, justice be satisfied, and chaos avoided by appeasement.

If you think such gods, the product of human minds is disgusting, well, see what else human minds are capable of when they think they are not in controle and what they will do to gain controle.

(By the way, for a previouse poster, Hitler did not invent genocide, it was Nationaly practiced long before the 20th century and there is a record of it.)

Punishing a Hitler, perhaps. But again you omit punishing the decent person who simply hasn't accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Saviour. I've heard that one or two Christians -- with very large churches and TV shows -- still teach that, or has it recently been quietly abandoned and nobody thought to tell me?
I think every lie told to children in order to coerce is cruel. You may think otherwise, in which case I would consider myself glad not to have you as a parent.
There is a difference. The Atheist is not inventing terrifying stories in order to frighten children into believing and behaving.
Ah, well if you don't earn your way into hell by atrocities, then your persistence in reminding of that God is punishing Hitler seems oddly quaint, doesn't it?
By thought control, do you mean people expressing opinions with which you disagree?

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evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.

But you see, I don't think life has any "grand purpose." And if it does, what would it matter, since the purpose would not be yours, anyway, but some god's, who isn't telling what it really is. You should read my essay on "Meaning and Purpose for the Secular Humanist."
Ah! Believe one lie to make the other more acceptable! I see.

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evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.

EH...

are you making an assumption that i believe in purpose or destiny? i don't. What is reported about other's views does not mean those views are shared by the reporter.

You said.."Ah! Believe one lie to make the other more acceptable! I see."

To refine the thought....Hell is guanteed for non believers, or for believers who don't quite meet the mark others think they should...so in this frame heaven becomes the goal the purpose, the way out. For a believer the choice is not heaven or hell, it's simply heaven as hell is by default. ( keep in mind this is a report)

To most people of the world, this is central to thier lives, the sincere belief in something mighty and interested in them. Do you differentiate between mistake and lie? A mistake is misinformation believed, a lie is misinformation deliberatly shared...what is misinformation that's believed and shared?

Will check into your essay later and see if there is anything new in it. This morning has it's own busy-ness.

Well, I don't like the major teaching on hell as espounded especially by Evangelical conservatives. It's not the biblical teaching, imo, which thought of hell as reserved for the truly wicked. In any case, I don't think it is good theology to even emphasize hell unless in terms of justice for the truly wicked.


There are many ways to torment a child, and hell can be one of them. Of course, tormenters could use some teachings in science to torment children too (e.g., the earth occassionally is hit by asteroids and might in the near future).


I don't think it was atrocities that may put Hitler into hell. Rather, it is a mindset to inflict pain and suffering onto others without a repentant heart that puts someone in hell.


No. I mean that when someone voices an opinion that is by no means disrespectful they are not given reasons for their disagreements but rather emotional arguments to coerce change:


Isn't this what the teaching of hell has mostly become?

Harvey forgive me for that post above...not that i am sorry i felt as i did..nor thinking as i do...but for my lack of ability to put into words any dialogue to reach a way to express to someone who's thinking is so different and seems from my history of relating to those whom talk similiar to you ...i dont have the fancy words or education to keep up with the banter ....i have nothing but my history and relations with other to compare your response the way it hit me and i fully understand that with out full conversation and one on one and seeing someones behavior it is hard sometimes to make a call of what is trying to be presented...and right or wrong..for me your response came across to me like the typical what i refer to as bible thumper...they know they have the answer and to have it you must walk talk and think and act as they do...if you dont fall in that catagory that is great...my saying that i dont know what to do but shake my head has not changed ..i still feel that way...it is just what seems to me to be such a wide divide of what one was saying and the response that was given...my thinking is only right for me..i not saying it is right...nor wrong...just how it struck me..what i am reading and taking away from what was read....and really sometimes it is not about what we think we said but what another takes away from it...do we change who we are or how we respond...of course not...but it does not hurt to think..i know where i come from and my thinking reasons and what emotions might arrise from my thoughts...but just examine the pages and pages of conversing on this site and the differences of perception...we are all fine doing just what we are meant to do..and depersonalize and understand it is the individual that is working through there spot in time..for all...life is good...no grudges..no harm...and life continues...often what appears to be harm is just another lesson...thanks...oh...and i dont ever wish anyone to change because i think different...i wish people to change if change is what there looking for or where there at and each moment brings it ...want it or not...right....take care