Jewscout, don't take this as intended as an insult, but what about stoning adulterers and the like?

Ah, Divine Commands! But it seems to me that if you think morality comes from God's commands, then it is really, really important to know what God commanded, isn't it? So of course, one must find out where those commands are. For most people, the commandments are stored in their religious writings, in the case of Jews, the Torah etc., for Christians the Bible (OT and NT), for Muslims the Qur'an, etc.

But let's look. Most people will tell you the 10 Commandments are the basis (or at least one strong central feature) of morality. But most of those same people can't tell you what they are!. The two slightly different versions (Ex. 20:2-17, Deut 5:6-11) take a bit of work to reconcile, or even to get to 10. That's why there are Jewish, Catholic and Protestant versions, and they are different.

Americans think of the Protestant ones, which includes not making any graven images (the Jews and Catholics don't have that one). Yet Protestants grave images all over the place, while the Jews are less keen to do so (somewhat like Muslims).

And of course, both Torah sources of the Big Ten make sure to tell us that God punishes children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren for the sins of the first generation. We don't believe that so much anymore, but it's what the Book says. It's like working on the seventh day -- lots of people do nowadays, and we don't particularly think we're all going to Hell for it.

One of the two Torah sources implies that wives are chattels, and both say slaves are certainly just another kind of property.

We're told not to kill, but who worries about the military dropping bombs on the innocent civilians of other nations? Oh, maybe it really does mean "murder" (unlawful killing), but we are so very adept at finding ways to make whatever killing we (as nations) want to do "lawful" that it's pretty easy to get around that little quibble.

But wait, the books are filled with other commandments, like "don't boil a kid in its mother's milk," or "don't eat shrimp." Now, rabbis have taken the first to mean don't serve dairy and meat together, but one can't help but notice that Araham once fed God himself a meal of curds, milk and veal. God seems to have enjoyed it. (Gen. 18:8)

You see, neither of the two usual sources for the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-11) actually calls themselves the Ten Commandments. The only place in the Bible that does use that very term, specifically for commandments written upon tablets of stone, is Exodus 34:28 And I'm afraid that this chapter, Exodus 34:1-28, has a radically different list of commandments, numbering (in spite of what verse 28 says) many more than 10. (This is where you get the bit about seething kids in mom's milk.)

See, it gets difficult to sort out what we're being guided to do, if the Bible is a "Manual for Life." Maybe the New Testament is clearer? Jesus sayid the two greatest commandments are to love God and to love one's neighbour, but strikingly, neither one of these is in the Ten Commandments.

And that, friends, is why there are 38,000 Christian sects, all trying to find ways to make a puzzlement of ancient and often unconnected writings into a Manual for Life.

It can't be done.

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evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.

Since Jewscout hasn't responded, I'll deal with this question.

When it comes to capital punishment, what we see in Torah are maximum sentences, not required sentences according to our rabbis. Here's why.

After the Pentateuch was written, that was followed by the Tanakh (rest of the "O.T."), then the Mishnah (the oral law), then the Talmud (various teachings, court rulings, and many other things), and then some also include Kabbalah (which I won't deal with here).

We really are a people of the Talmud, no matter how we may regard it. The Talmud reflects Torah, Tanakh, and Mishnah, but it sets forth decisions and applications. OK, let me give you an example.

In Torah, it states "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But our sages viewed this as the maximum penalty that could be given. Let me show you how the Talmud deals with this. It says that if there's more than one execution over a seven year period in all of Israel, then the courts are being overly brutal. Today in Israel, capital punishment is reserved only for mass murderers or serial killers.

Hope this helps.

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"Always aim at complete harmony of thought and word and deed. Always aim at purifying your thoughts and everything will be well."-- Mahatma Gandhi

Completly agree with you EH


Could you tell me - I heard it said that Jesus says in the Bible he has brought a new law ?

Is that correct and if so wouldnt that mean his commandments are the ones to follow - not the previous commandments ?>

Love God and Love your neighbour ?

The love of God and one's fellow man is found throughout Torah, and is further enunciated through the Tanakh, Mishnah, and Talmud. Our sages have long believed that the main purpose of our scriptures was to create a more just and compassionate people and, eventually, world. Again, one has to realize that Torah is only the base, and much is later conditioned and refined. If one reads Jesus' Sermon On the Mount, there's nothing there about the treatment of others that's not found in the Jewish scriptures.

Judaism, like all religions, is in transition. What we have now is not the same as that which existed 3000 years ago. Sometimes when we're in Torah study, we run across a verse or story that makes us just cringe. But then we well know what happens as these stories are brought forth to today.

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"Always aim at complete harmony of thought and word and deed. Always aim at purifying your thoughts and everything will be well."-- Mahatma Gandhi

This does help. It is very similar to what I am realizing about Hinduism. The religion is not a book alone, but a culture and society with that book at it's center.

In the context of what you just taught me I am reminded of the story of Rabbi Hillel. A Gentile came to Rabbi Hillel and asked: "Can you stand on one foot and recite the whole Torah? If you can, I will convert" Instead of being goaded by their teasing, Rabbi Hillel stood on one foot and said "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and study it."

Yes. One of my favorite stories. Thanks.

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"Always aim at complete harmony of thought and word and deed. Always aim at purifying your thoughts and everything will be well."-- Mahatma Gandhi

Jesus said several things about the law, most prominently that he came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it. "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Matthew 5:18 (NKJV)

In John 13:34, he says, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." (NKJV)

So, for Christians (unless they believe that "all is fulfilled") I must assume that the law of the Old Testament holds true, every jot and tittle, but with the addition (if it can really be called an addition, as Metis points out in this thread) of a commandment to love each other.

That would seem to mean they need to stop eating bacon-wrapped shrimp right this very instant!

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evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.

I was in a hurry last night when I responded to your comment about Hillel the Elder's teaching, and I wanted to respond to the above, but ran out of time.

I'm quite pleased you're reading about Hinduism simply because it opens up "new avenues" beyond the basic teachings found in the Abrahamic religions. A very close friend of mine spent an entire summer in India on a study of Gandhi's effect on Hinduism that was sponsored by Eastern Michigan University. He came back amazed. Even though he's Catholic, the effect on him from Hindu teachings is very evident, and he has made presentations on Gandhi and Hinduism to various church groups.

As you have discovered, Hinduism is very far from being monolithic and, as a matter of fact, many prefer to simply define "Hinduism" as the "religion of the Indian people". There are so many different schools with variant teachings, which is considered all fine and dandy. As one who is a non-theist (no belief in a creator-god) that follows Buddhist dharma quite closely, I found out for the first time last year that there were and are Hindu schools that are non-theistic as well.

I have long considered Gandhi to be my mentor, and I still do, even though he was much more theistic than I. Let me highly recommend a book to you that I'm quite certain you'll enjoy: "The Essential Gandhi: An Anthology of His Writings On His Life, Work, and Ideas" edited by Louis Fischer. It arranges Gandhi's teachings by topic so, for example, if you want to see what he thought of other religions, just turn to that chapter and you can read what he wrote or spoke about that particular item. Excellent book!

Good luck with your research.

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"Always aim at complete harmony of thought and word and deed. Always aim at purifying your thoughts and everything will be well."-- Mahatma Gandhi