Proving or Disproving God

[Lightkeeper]

Many religions teach that the God is within us ("The Kingdom of heaven is within."). Many people interpret that God is outside of us in "heaven".

Which God are atheists trying to disprove? Is there proof that God is not within us?

[evangelicalhumanist]

Originally Posted by Lightkeeper

Many religions teach that the God is within us ("The Kingdom of heaven is within."). Many people interpret that God is outside of us in "heaven".

Which God are atheists trying to disprove? Is there proof that God is not within us?

What does it mean to say that "God is within us?" For some, this could simply be the very fact of consciousness, which for others is just "what the brain does." And the corollary question, of course, is if God is "within us," does this God die when we do?

The interesting thing about your question, "which God are atheists trying to disprove," is not one that I would have thought of. Atheists will tell you that you cannot prove or disprove God, and that it is pointless trying.

All of the "proofs" that have been tried with respect to God have been by theists, those like Anselm, and others, who have created the Ontological Argument, the Anthropic Argument, the Cosmological Argument, etc., all of which are supposed to prove the existence of God. Atheists don't offer up a proof of the non-existence of God, they merely show how those particular arguments fail to make the case for God.

But I will agree that all of those arguments are predicated upon a God that is somehow a separate entity. Once we begin to argue that "we are god and god are we and we're all us together" (as the Beatles might have sung it), well those arguments go out the window, but then you need to resolve what you mean when you say things like "God is within us."

Now, my suspicion (and it is just a guess on my part, informed by zero wisdom) is that what people mean when they say that "God is within us" is that there is something special about human beings, which does not pertain to any other species on earth -- something that sets us apart, that might be called "divine." But the real question, the one that is still left open, is whether or not that something special can exist without the shell in which it currently manifests itself.

And once again, I think you'll find that such an idea can neither be proved nor disproved, and we're all back to believing or not believing on what we perceive to be the balance of evidence.

[shaw-n]

And once again, I think you'll find that such an idea can neither be proved nor disproved, and we're all back to believing or not believing on what we perceive to be the balance of evidence.

I would concur with EH on this point as there is no empirical evidence to prove nor disprove God. I believe that there is such an entity as I have had experiences in my life which have validated that for me. But I don't expect others to believe in God based on my experiences. Each person needs to work that issue out for themselves.

I should add that I don't hold with any of the conventional views of what God is, I have a pretty good imagination and vocabulary, but such a definition is hard to explain. It is like trying to explain quantum entanglement in layman's terms.(That would be easier)

[mooomooo]

You are both right and wrong ,, for example,,,, you stated ,,

" And once again, I think you'll find that such an idea can neither be proved nor disproved, and we're all back to believing or not believing on what we perceive to be the balance of evidence. "
----------------------

---> This may be true however some of us have seen and lived Truth which literally forces us to believe whether we want to or not . I assume not very many people are in this situation , knowing the Truth and this is because not all could handle the Truth and also due to the other reasons God cannot allow us all to know the Truth . This is why the Atheists do not believe , because they have not "seen" the Truth first hand but those who have , have had it documented throughout History in many Holy Books etc .

I am just like an Atheist but l was "forced" to believe what l have done and seen with my 'own' hands , and l know . I also see why it is so difficult and perhaps impossible for others to see the Truth because l also could not see the Truth until it was literally shoved down my throat , and l say that because l have tasted the spit from a person who came back from the dead .
Sure l know how l sound but that is because it has to be this way and for those who know the truth 'First Hand' they know what world l am living in and how l react when l hear Atheists speak 'their' truths with all due respect to them . God cannot allow a person with a snap of God's finger to do a Miracle etc . It is a life long living concept which we all are living but very few if any are aware of it , that they are in a world they cannot see but it is all around them and some can see it but obviously Atheists cannot and l do not condemn an Atheist because they are not seeing the Truth as it really is .

[mooomooo]

I just spent an hour posting and when l went to read it POOF it is gone . I know Lightkeper did not do it and Fate did it but l am so fed up everytime l post anywhere from my heart and purity of intentions POOF it disappears in to lost poof land .
I can only assume that God did it to stop me from saying what l was saying and it worked as you are not reading it now and l am too fed up to try to re write it again , so l must assume God has stopped me again from telling you all here the Truth and l am forced to believe that , no matter how insane and ridiculous and ,, CRAZY ETC ETC ETC ,

YEP l am crazy and l also have necked with a ghost , levitated , seen stuff move in air ,,Healed fractured spines using modified psychic surgery and soooo much more ,,,
AND l AM NUTS .

Not bad for 55

And l know this is true ,, and l know you know it is a delusion .

[musicman30mm]

I think the closest thing to a proof of atheism I have run across is the argument from non cognativism. It's not a proof, but it is very formulaic and priori.

There are three attributes of existants which concern us particularly, these being:
A) Primary Attributes
B) Secondary Attributes
C) Relational Attributes.
B as well as C are dependent upon and must be related to an existant’s A in order to be considered meaningful.
The term “God” lacks a positively identified A.
Because of this, the term “God” holds no justified A, B, or C. (From 2)
However, an attribute-less term (a term lacking A, B, and C) is meaningless.
Therefore, the term “God” is meaningless. (From 3, 4, 5)
Therefore, the god-concept is invalid.

The Argument From Non-Cognitivism

In the roughest of terms, this arguement makes a good case that God is a philosophically bankrupt term because it is too vague, and defined by what it isn't rather than what it is.

I think it's a strong position, and I think the original poster in this thread puts it on display. He offers two possible alternative gods, both of which are so vague, they can hardly be destinguished from each other, even though that is exactly what he is trying to do.

This arguement is a good one to whip out when one runs into the brick wall of "God is beyond logic" "God can't be put into a test tube" or "God exists outside of reality". If those things are true, especially the later, then god either doesn't exist at all or we should all becom apatheists.

[pinski]

Originally Posted by musicman30mm

I think the closest thing to a proof of atheism I have run across is the argument from non cognativism. It's not a proof, but it is very formulaic and priori.

There are three attributes of existants which concern us particularly, these being:
A) Primary Attributes
B) Secondary Attributes
C) Relational Attributes.
B as well as C are dependent upon and must be related to an existant’s A in order to be considered meaningful.
The term “God” lacks a positively identified A.
Because of this, the term “God” holds no justified A, B, or C. (From 2)
However, an attribute-less term (a term lacking A, B, and C) is meaningless.
Therefore, the term “God” is meaningless. (From 3, 4, 5)
Therefore, the god-concept is invalid.

The Argument From Non-Cognitivism

In the roughest of terms, this arguement makes a good case that God is a philosophically bankrupt term because it is too vague, and defined by what it isn't rather than what it is.

I think it's a strong position, and I think the original poster in this thread puts it on display. He offers two possible alternative gods, both of which are so vague, they can hardly be destinguished from each other, even though that is exactly what he is trying to do.

This arguement is a good one to whip out when one runs into the brick wall of "God is beyond logic" "God can't be put into a test tube" or "God exists outside of reality". If those things are true, especially the later, then god either doesn't exist at all or we should all becom apatheists.

It sounds convincing, easy to understand and makes total sense.
But tell us, why then, this "math knowledge" does not bring everyone who adapted this "knowledge" closer to the inner peace?

A.P.

[wwwdlhow27]

IMO, the one subject with the most possible paths to the answer or truth is, God. Nothing has consumed us more or ocuppied a greater amount of our energy, than to decide on how we feel about our place in the universe and why.

Forty some years ago, where I stood was revealed to me. God being a forgone conclusion IMO, I realized that if He/She created all that is, what was there before the episode of Creation? The only thing God had to "work with" was God! The only stuff going into Creating Everything, everywhere, eternally, is God.

God is not within us, EVERYTHING is ONE with GOD. Too simple?

Try wrapping your belief system around the fact (IMO) Creation and the Big Bang, are one and the same. Also, this is not the first creation episode and it wont be the last, eternity has no beginning or end.

[Chippingaway]

musicman...

i like the formula you posted, very well thought out. Not that i agree with it but i like it.

Sometimes a thing can be so evident it's over looked and not considered because it is so evident. Gravity for instance, who would have thought....before Isaac Newton that is.

Let's fiddle with the formula...

"A) Primary Attributes....

Is there anything more primary then awareness?

"B) Secondary Attributes"

Consciousness and mind based on awareness

"C) Relational Attributes."

Consciouse that one is aware. ( movement within awareness, observer and object of observation=time)

Then wwdhow said: "The only thing God had to "work with" was God! The only stuff going into Creating Everything, everywhere, eternally, is God. " Yep.

Kinda like the gravity thing, so immanent it's hard to see, but not impossible to back it up until that primary awareness is exposed in each of us.

It is not an accurate assumption as to what is impossible to cognate does does not exist, from the vantage point of beetlegues ( sp? ) a giant star, earth is not cognitivable, how much less the tiny creatures who scurry on it's surface? More down to earth....only recently has it been discovered elephants communicate long distances with each other at such a low frequencey it wasn't even suspected. Discoverd by accident if memory serves. And how much logic is there in the observable behavior of some sub atomic particals?

But it makes no difference, to believe or not believe there's a divinity, other then if one has a drive to understand the basic nature of being. Frankly m'dear, i don't give a dam if you're ( impersonal all inclusive 'you') an atheist or not, that which is called 'god' doesn't care either.

[Lightkeeper]

Originally Posted by mooomooo

I just spent an hour posting and when l went to read it POOF it is gone . I know Lightkeper did not do it and Fate did it but l am so fed up everytime l post anywhere from my heart and purity of intentions POOF it disappears in to lost poof land .
I can only assume that God did it to stop me from saying what l was saying and it worked as you are not reading it now and l am too fed up to try to re write it again , so l must assume God has stopped me again from telling you all here the Truth and l am forced to believe that , no matter how insane and ridiculous and ,, CRAZY ETC ETC ETC ,

YEP l am crazy and l also have necked with a ghost , levitated , seen stuff move in air ,,Healed fractured spines using modified psychic surgery and soooo much more ,,,
AND l AM NUTS .

Not bad for 55

And l know this is true ,, and l know you know it is a delusion .

No one has deleted your post. When you have a long post you can be timed out by your server. In order to avoid being timed out by your server always copy your posts so you can paste them.

If you have questions about your posts please notify any member of the moderating team rather than in a thread.