Or they were prosecuted for simply political reasons, and they're belief in the risen god (metaphorically) was written down as myth, and changed. You have no idea if he rose or not, or why they were persecuted. Were you there? Were you also there when the pagans were persecuted for believing that the gods perform miracles of their own? I believe more pagans were persecuted than christians. Were they not set in their beliefs?

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The only constant in this universe is change. Are you ready to change??

regardless of how many prophecies there are in Tanach(which your site seems to be using verses from sections which are not actually prophecy) Jesus is not a jewish messiah...once you leave the context of that definition then things are a little different...but the prophecies of the Moshiach ben David (or the Moshiach ben Yoseph for that matter) he did not fulfill


Kane the translators where not using the original hebrew when constructing this, they were using a latin text which was originally translated from a greek text that has been shown to be in error
the word "Alma" which is used can mean virgin, but in most context is referring to a young woman of marriagable age, virgin or not
in fact the context in which the word Alma is used never means virgin, it is used to describe a young woman
Proverbs 30:19
The way of an eagle in the air; the way of a serpent upon a rock; the way of a ship in the midst of the sea; and the way of a man with a (b'alma)maid.

secondly the prophet, HIMSELF, uses the word Alma only once, here in Isaiah 7:14. for the rest of his prophecies he refers to virgins with the more accurate and less questionable word "Betulah" (Isaiah 23:4; 23:12; 37:22; 47:1; 62:5)

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James (Half-brother Of Jesus): stoned and clubbed to death
Paul: beheaded
Simon Peter: crucified upside down
Andrew: crucified
Matthew: killed by the sword
James: (son of Alphaeus): crucified
Phillip: crucified
Simon: crucified
Thaddeus: killed by arrows
Thomas: killed by spear thrust
Bartholomew: crucified
James (Sons of Zebedee): killed by the sword

All these men had to do was deny they believed that salvation was found only in Jesus and they would have been spared. These were the same men who went running through the garden of Gethsemane in fear as Jesus was being arrested. Simon Peter himself denied knowing Jesus three times during Jesus' trial. What changed these cowardly men so suddenly?

People often die for good causes. Jesus' followers had a good cause, but then He was crucified. Their Messiah was publicly disgraced and executed. Not quite the greatest cause for martyrdom. What happened?

Very few would die for a lie, and very few would persist in preaching doubtful wishful thinking. How could they succeed in converting people into the early church(a place of extreme persecution) without a reliable, convincing message.

Maybe you can explain why Saul, a proud and violent man who persecuted the church suddenly became a Christian and endured violent torture and lengthy prison terms. What did he have to gain? He certainly had lots to lose.

As for being simply a myth, and subject to legendary development:
Over 24,000 copies of early New Testament manuscripts are known to be in existence today. The Bible we have today is about 99.5% similar to these manuscripts. And "We can already say emphatically that there is no longer any solid basis for dating any book of the New Testament after about A.D. 80.." - William F. Albright

"I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history . . ."
E. M. Blaiklock
Professor of Classics
Auckland University

"If the New Testament were a collection of secular writings, their authenticity would generally be regarded as beyond all doubt."
F. F. Bruce
Manchester University


MV - I'm going to be away for a week so reply if you wish but please give me some time to reply.

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I am the one, O Lord, who brought You there,
I am the heavy cross You had to bear,
I am the rope that bound You to the tree,
The whip, the nail, the hammer, and the spear,
The blood-stained crown of thorns You had to wear:
It was my sin, alas, it was for me. -Jacob Revius

This is my first post here. First off, let me say that most "Christians" do not follow the teachings of Christ at all. And most Christians feel it there responsiblity to cram their distorted view of "Christianity" down the throat of others. Further back in this thread I read something about faith and science being two opposites. Beg your pardon. You can prove faith with the scientific method just as well as you can prove other tangible articles of physics. But first, you must be willing to lay all prejudices aside to proceed and obtain an unbiasd result. In other words in the words of the 60's hippie cult addage "Question Everything!" especially unfounded dogma.

Who taught you what you know and where did he learn it? If you believe because that's what you were taught to believe then your belief is lacking. A relationship with God is a personal thing for all of us. We will not go to heaven two by two as Noah took the animals in the Ark. We will not be judged enmasse before God. Just because my preacher said it does not make it so. He is human and just as apt to be mistaken as the next guy. No, belief, faith, religion, spirituality or what ever you make call it must come from your own personal search. "Seek and Ye shall find." Very much too often overlooked.

Tell me of your experience...not your knowledge. I'm already full of that.

Whilst I believe God exists, and has power, I do not follow Christianity.
Most things I learnt I either picked up along the way or taught myself.


I fully agree.

Prove what exactly?

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-Scott

It is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. -- Bertrand Russell

Kane, I understand that they were killed for what they believed in. I have no doubt of that. But to say that what they believed in was right simply because they were killed for it proves nothing. What makes their belief any more correct than all of the pagans, native americans, druids, etc... that were killed for what they believed in. As you say, people don't get killed over a lie.

__________________
The only constant in this universe is change. Are you ready to change??

Can you provide me with an explanation on why their behavior changed so suddenly? Can you provide examples of martydom that are related in case to the apostles martydom? Did all those pagans suddenly change their beliefs to suffer extreme persecution for seemingly no reason? How do you explain away the fact the Jesus' body was missing on the third day?

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I am the one, O Lord, who brought You there,
I am the heavy cross You had to bear,
I am the rope that bound You to the tree,
The whip, the nail, the hammer, and the spear,
The blood-stained crown of thorns You had to wear:
It was my sin, alas, it was for me. -Jacob Revius

Can you explain why so many people in cults commit suicide? Surely that is a sudden change of behavior, and an acceptance of death in the face of their beliefs. Do you believe they are correct? If not, than you will understand why I don't see the evidence in your argument either. Also, can you prove jesus' body was missing on the third day? If your evidence is simply using the bible, than that doesn't work. If you cannot make that claim fact, than there is no reason for me to explain it away.

__________________
The only constant in this universe is change. Are you ready to change??

Is suicide comparable to martyrdom? Can you reasonably compare the apostles to destructive cultists?



What I said before:
Over 24,000 copies of early New Testament manuscripts are known to be in existence today. The Bible we have today is about 99.5% similar to these manuscripts. And "We can already say emphatically that there is no longer any solid basis for dating any book of the New Testament after about A.D. 80.." - William F. Albright

Therefore, no time for historical development, and within time for opponents of Christianity to refute the apostle's claims. And there were a lot of opponents. Nothing about history is perfectly certain, but if you believe Sir Francis Drake circumnavigated the globe, and Motecuhzoma Xocoyotzin met the Spanish, why is it hard to accept the Gospels?

"I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history . . ." -E. M. Blaiklock

"If the New Testament were a collection of secular writings, their authenticity would generally be regarded as beyond all doubt." -F. F. Bruce

__________________
I am the one, O Lord, who brought You there,
I am the heavy cross You had to bear,
I am the rope that bound You to the tree,
The whip, the nail, the hammer, and the spear,
The blood-stained crown of thorns You had to wear:
It was my sin, alas, it was for me. -Jacob Revius