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Religious Debate Debate religions and religious topics.

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Old 24th May 2008, 08:56 AM
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Organized Religion: Natural Or Unnatural?

Given what we know about Nature and GOD, is the understanding of what we know about organized religion natural or unnatural?

Are these organizations a derivative if human nature or GOD Nature?

If you choose natural as an answer, what exactly is it that makes it natural? Is it as one believes, the belief in which God’s will is written on the hearts of men? Are there any religious props that are required? Is belief natural?

If you believe that organized is unnatural what could religion do to align itself into a more Natural state that reflects the aspects of GOD’s nature?
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Last edited by cardero : 24th May 2008 at 09:00 AM.
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Old 24th May 2008, 04:40 PM
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Old 24th May 2008, 06:34 PM
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It depends on what you consider "natural". Is psychological development "natural". If so, then organized religion is also natural, true but partial. Just as every psychological meme has a life cycle, so does the one that produces "organized religion". I also think the term "organized religion" can be viewed as part of a spiritual tradition, where the tradition will encompass and then outgrow that form, just as humans outgrow adolescence.

The Life Cycle of a Value Meme

Value Memes (vMEMEs) are the term Spiral Dynamics gives to unfolding waves of consciousness. Waves is an apt descriptor as these modes of consciousness can be envisioned to unfold in a wave like function with an ascending surge, a peak crest, and declining fall. And just as the waves on a shore, there is not just one wave occurring and then the next, but multiple waves, sometimes interfering with one another. When this type of interference occurs, the stronger wave may win out, but its initial force may be dampened a bit by the collision. When one first encounters Spiral Dynamics, they usually try to identify themselves or other people as this wave or that, when in fact, all of those waves are within you. Some waves have receded and are barely noticed, some are at full strength or just waiting to swell, while other lie deeper still, awaiting the right time and conditions to begin an ascent.

The active life of a vMEME has three stages (taken from Spiral Dynamics, by Beck and Cowan).

ENTERING

When vMEMEs first awaken there is a time of preparation and energy increase. This includes the initial formation and refinement of a system, as well as the ‘Eureka!’ period of discovery and exploration. If one thinks of a sine curve (a bell curve), this is the upside.

The entering phase has three general sub-systems that occur in the following order:

1. The vMEME enters the minds of prophets and visionaries. For RED vMEMEs, this is your Alexander the Great; for BLUE, it is your St. Paul; for Orange, it is your Sir Isaac Newton.
2. The vMEME is then attacked by antibodies of earlier vMEMEs. These attacks can be internal conflicts or external pressures, such as the trial of Galileo (BLUE attacking ORANGE).
3. The vMEME becomes “cutting edge”. If the vMEME survives the antibodies, it begins to prosper in the minds of a few who become the pioneers of “the movement”.

PEAK

As a vMEME comes to maturation, there comes an interval of dynamic tension and apparent stability around the pinnacle. The Life Conditions and vMEMEs are in sync, congruent, and balanced. Graves (founder of Spiral Dynamics) always argued that this was largely a theoretical state since pure, isolated tones are rare in nature. However, it is also the easiest to talk about – there are only eight Peak vMEMEs thus far – if one is willing to accept for the moment simplicity that is not there.

4. The emerging vMEME spreads widely infecting a wide range of human endeavors such art, literature, religion, science and architecture.
5. The vMEME becomes codified by its truth-keepers often resulting in structured schools of learning establishing a form of authenticity not just for the believers but intended for populations at large.
6. The vMEME starts to become calcified and rigidized as the pronouncements and publications become less flexible with perceived successes of the vMEME.

EXITING

That interval of apparent stability is followed by a period of disintegration, a confusing time when the system is becoming imbalanced and ineffectual as more complicated problems outstrip its capacities. We are now on slippery slope downward and, if we have untapped potential and available resources, getting ready for the next wave.

7. Modus operandi of the vMEME no longer handles problems. This would be like how the Black Plague continues to rampage despite the most desperate pleas, prayers, and sacrifices of the clergy.
8. The vMEME becomes symbols and rituals which may be recalled for reasons of nostalgia or in times of crisis.
9. The residue remains of the fading vMEME are almost gone and will be all but forgotten save a drastic change in Life Conditions forcing a recall for survival purposes.

The Dynamic Spiral is always a process in process but without guarantees of movement or change. Graves was always careful to point out that:

Neither change nor lack of change is the rule. If there is no disturbance to the dynamic tension [no matter where along the curve], no change will appear to be the rule. If there is disturbance and imbalance, then change will appear to be the rule.
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Old 24th May 2008, 08:41 PM
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That's an interesting question... I think many here are not in organized religion or have left their own organized religion in some fashion..and so have maybe hybridized their religion so to speak..maybe adopted portions of other religions they like, so it could be a more personalized religion or individualistic religion which would be hard to categorize.

You could also say that there have been those who have exploited religion and changed it to suit their own purposes.

By going back to the earliest and most original form of the particular religion and that's assuming it has been preserved in some way you could see how much variation took place from the time it was first revealed and this could be I think a way you could tell the original from what has been morphed over time.

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