Abortion

[Lightkeeper]

Are you for or against Abortion? Is this a government or a religious issue?

[evangelicalhumanist]

Originally Posted by Lightkeeper

Are you for or against Abortion? Is this a government or a religious issue?

I am neither "for" or "against" abortion. And until such time as there is a viable fetus, capable (even with considerable help) of surviving outside of the uterus, I also believe it is neither a government nor a religious issue, but a private one.

It saddens me to see abortion used as a method of birth control, but it saddens me just as much to see a mistake turn into what might be a greater punishment than it should. I cannot speak for the girl who, perhaps under pressure, ventured a little too far and is now saddled with the possible loss of an education, or of taking on motherhood.

I also note, for those who will tell me about adoption, that there are literally thousands of kids awaiting that happy state. Yes, adoption is possible. No, it doesn't always happen. There are a lot of kids living on the streets today who can attest to that (and I do not pretend that this is the only reason for kids living on the streets, or even a major one).

[metis]

Originally Posted by Lightkeeper

Are you for or against Abortion? Is this a government or a religious issue?

Personally, I'm opposed to abortion unless the woman's health is threatened. However, I'm not willing to dictate my take on that whereas it becomes law. I certainly can see some significant concern especially in areas of rape, incest, or mental illness, etc., and I am not willing to demand that a woman must carry through with her pregnancy if she feels incapable of doing so.

And it is both a religious and governmental issue, even if the government decides not to do anything about it. No matter which way the government goes with this, they have to make a decision. And as far as religion goes, most, including Judaism and Buddhism, oppose abortion with the exception mentioned above.

[paleepiscopalianalien]

Originally Posted by Lightkeeper

Are you for or against Abortion? Is this a government or a religious issue?

I don't think I've ever met anybody who is "pro" abortion. I am certainly in favor of men AND women having automomy over their respective bodies, though.

[vivamis123]

I am with E.H. on all points he made.

My 15 year old just gave birth 3 weeks ago to a healthy baby boy. When we first found out we were in shock. We talked with her about her alternatives, but left the decision making up to her. She decided to keep it. We supported her decision.

The pregnancy itself was smooth, but what she had to go through on judgment from others was heart breaking. Birth was smooth too and both are well.

Her teachers are all great and I was able to pick up her school work so she won't fall too much behind. She is a good student and is determined to finish her school and fulfill her dream of becoming a vet. Again we will support her decision and provide the foundation to make this possible.

I am surprised to see her step up to the plate at such a young age. I help her with the baby...but only when she asks. She is up at night...breastfeeding and taking care of everything. I am really proud of her.

[Asimov]

Originally Posted by Lightkeeper

Are you for or against Abortion? Is this a government or a religious issue?

I'm neither for nor against abortion. I favor freedom of choice when it comes to bodily matters such as pregnancy.

The religious make it a governmental issue by bringing in their personal beliefs.

[musicman30mm]

I think you ask the wrong questions when you say, "Are you for or against abortion?"

Also, when asking whether it is public or private, religious or governmental, you miss the point.

It is a question of science.

We must answer the question:

At what point in development does a gestating human being become able to suffer?

Then we can answer the question not with a simple yea or nay, but with when and under what circumstances.

As this is Interfaithforums, I must assert that religion has no purchase in the matter of abortion. I don't care if you believe there is an all knowing, all judgemental being who wrote a book that says the human soul enters the body at conception. Matters of public interest (As abortion is ultimately a question of murder or not murder, it clearly belongs in public discourse.), can only be resolved through reason and evidence. Until you can give objective reasons and evidence that there is such thing as god and soul, further, that said god wrote something on the topic of abortion, your religious opinion diserves the same amount of respect as those of astrologists and moonies.

For the record, as it has been demonstrated that a prematurly born infant can survive outside of the womb as early as six months into the pregnance, I would put my 'never after' line very early on. I think that line should be determined by the experts, and I assure you, they wear lab coats, not robes and pointy hats.

[Eolas Pellor]

I think the entire abortion debate is stupid...a great deal of heat, without any light whatsoever. Both sides make up specious arguments, and throw out examples that are so extreme as to be statistically negligible.

I do not like abortion. I think it is a bad alternative, even though, sometimes, having a child is also a bad alternative.

I have listened to a fair number of young women agonize over this over the years I have been teaching. Some have chose one way, and some the other. I have listened to them, offered counsel, if they wanted it, and supported the decisions they have made.

Some of their stories have been heart wrenching, and the decision has never, as far as I have seen, been lightly reached, no matter whether they continued the pregnancy or terminated it. Life is hard, and I have no right to make it harder by telling people what they can and can not do in such circumstances.

Moralizing is easy, and cheap, and very little help to people.

I notice that many of the "pro-life" people are anxious to prevent women from having abortions, but far less anxious to help them when they actually have the baby. I notice, too, that most "pro-choice" advocates (that I have known) are very vocal about the woman's right to choose, but also rarely step up to help young women who choose to keep their child.

I have helped young women who chose to keep their child, financially and in other ways.

[evangelicalhumanist]

Originally Posted by Eolas Pellor

I think the entire abortion debate is stupid...a great deal of heat, without any light whatsoever. Both sides make up specious arguments, and throw out examples that are so extreme as to be statistically negligible.

I do not like abortion. I think it is a bad alternative, even though, sometimes, having a child is also a bad alternative.

Life is full of choices, and some of them are appalling. Yet we are required, from time to time, to make them. My point was that I think there is a time when how to make those choices is entirely personal. I don't necessarily know how to define the time when that choice might reasonably be taken away, but certainly when a developing fetus is viable ex-utero, I think the law might have something to say. Even then -- how can I be certain?

Life is hard, and I have no right to make it harder by telling people what they can and can not do in such circumstances.

Moralizing is easy, and cheap, and very little help to people.

Just so, and well said.

I notice that many of the "pro-life" people are anxious to prevent women from having abortions, but far less anxious to help them when they actually have the baby. I notice, too, that most "pro-choice" advocates (that I have known) are very vocal about the woman's right to choose, but also rarely step up to help young women who choose to keep their child.

I agree. We are all hypocrites when we pontificate about what is right and wrong, but refuse to involve ourselves when such choices must be made.

I have helped young women who chose to keep their child, financially and in other ways.

Glad to hear it. There are others who do likewise, but far too many who merely demonstrate, treating the young women (whether aborting or not) as nothing more than pawns in their moral crusade.

[Fortuna]

Originally Posted by Eolas Pellor

A-I notice that many of the "pro-life" people are anxious to prevent women from having abortions, but far less anxious to help them when they actually have the baby. I notice, too, that most "pro-choice" advocates (that I have known) are very vocal about the woman's right to choose, but also rarely step up to help young women who choose to keep their child.


B-Moralizing is easy, and cheap, and very little help to people.


C-I have helped young women who chose to keep their child, financially and in other ways.

Concerning item "A", I would like to state that you are incorrect here and I resent this rhetoric.
Many pro-life people I know offer a great deal of financial and spiritual support to women who have decided to keep their child. And, there are many churches as well, mine being one, who help these mothers and without brow beating them to come to church nor do we make them feel guilty for their situation.

Personally, I have mixed feelings about "helping them". How will they grow up and learn to take responsibility for their decisions and actions, if people are willing to "help" them bear the responsibility? This does not help them, it coddles them and makes them believe they do not have to take responsibility for their actions.

Furthermore, often, I think to "help" is just another way for people to do a "feel good" deed and puff themselves up as humanitarians.
Birth control is very easily obtained, especially where I live.

I feel a great deal of pity for those children born to such irresponsible people. Granted, this is a generalization and there are exceptions.

Women should not be made to feel guilty for putting up their children for adoption and in some cases for abortion.


B-Moralizing would have better preceded the pregnancy circumstances and perhaps some women would have been able to avoid this dilemma.

Most men have a vested interest in not caring if a women gets pregnant, until recently, when they can be sued. However, one cannot get blood out of a turnip or an irresponsible male partner. Who bears the burden then? The pregnant woman, tax payers, the grandparents and friends.

Part of the problem is not moralizing enough, making it clear to men and women what can happen to them, and giving children a fair chance to grow up in a family unit that can provide for the child. My better half's mother had nine children. She would feed them all lunch using one can of soup. She chose to keep her children and do the best she could against all odds and a deadbeat father who ultimately left them. He grew up not having enough food and an abusive father. Is this what people what for innocent children? I think not.

Moralizing is not cheap especially emotionally and does a great deal of help to those who will listen and are strong enough to say "No" instead of parting their legs in the heat of passion or "love" or pushing a woman to have sex. Of course, the exceptions are rape and coerced sex (meaning "have sex with me if you love me").

C-I am curious, what "other" ways have you helped? Your compassion is to your credit, however, what message does this send about taking responsibility?
Women and men get in a fix and expect others to bail them out when they come crying for help. Very sad.

As for myself, I grew up in the 60's and 70's when it was free love. Have as much sex with as many people as you like as much as you like! However, I went to the Free Clinics and got birth control. Happily, I never had to make the choice to keep a child or not. Even as a peson caught up in the "hippie" culture, I chose to take responsibility because of my moral upbringing.
Yes, I did other things thought to be immoral, however, I drew the line at inflicting my lifestyle on an innocent life. I had at least heeded some things from my parents and grandparents who gave me a good foundation. This foundation served me well after my cultural fling and does so to this day.

Please let's not flood the world with child welfare cases, let's help women and men to become responsible citizens and then maybe they won't have to pay for everybody else's irresponsible choices.

In closing, Hmmmmmm, there really must be something to those religious nuts who counsel marriage before pregnancy, not after. At least the child has a fighting chance for a decent life at the start.

Fortuna