Vow of Poverty

[Lightkeeper]

Do we have to take a vow of poverty in order to obtain salvation?

No, not for me, it's not in the Christian covenant. I think it is imperitive to appreciate(not waste) what you have and share it with the less fortunate, but not necessarily have a vow of poverty.

[martha]

That question depends upon what one considers poverty and the definition of salvation..

IMHO, it suggests letting go of the attachments to things of this world. Salvation comes from letting go of self. When one truly releases the attachment to self and all that it constitutes, then one will find salvation.
Salvation's definition is, deliverance from the power & effects of sin.

When one one takes a vow of poverty it means that they will distance themselves from the things of the world that might have a hold upon them. As an example, gluttony of food is considered a sin. The poverty of food does not mean that one should starve, but one should only eat what the body needs to sustain itself.

Poverty of the soul means don't consume yourself with yourself and your needs. On the contrary, concern yourself with the needs of others and use your special gifts to uplift and be useful to your fellow travelers in this life.

So I guess that I would say that a vow of "poverty" would lead to salvation.

[martha]

Quite frankly, the image of poverty is perhaps in the eye of the beholder.

Poverty stricken people do not consider this a conscious choice, but a circumstance of their lives. There is not much hope of a salvation from that perspective.

To take a vow of poverty means that one dies to self. It means that no matter how little one has, that little, would be given to another if need be.

I guess that I would say that a certain degree of poverty is needed for salvation.

[Master Vigil]

Poverty is a good way to take the "vow of simplicity" (I like to call it). And this leads to humility, which is the key to enlightenment. But necessary? No, of course not.

[Rev. Rex]

Originally Posted by Lightkeeper

Do we have to take a vow of poverty in order to obtain salvation?

I don't believe so. To me, the real meaning of such a vow is more to prioritize things. Many people do not have their priorities right, and that is just one way of 'forcing' the issue.

[Luguber]

Originally Posted by martha

That question depends upon what one considers poverty and the definition of salvation..
...
Salvation's definition is, deliverance from the power & effects of sin.

I don't believe in sin. There is for me no supernatural entity against whom (or which) I could sin. If I act with/against the Tao, Nature/Tao itself will see to that I am affected in a positive/negative way. In short, I'm free from sin, and, accordingly, I don't need salvation, however you define it.

[Taphophilia]

I believe in sin as being an error, but not as it is in the concept of sin in religion. We all make errors. We do things that hurt others and ourselves. I believe that the path that our lives should take is to be conscience of these errors, and to attempt to make ourselves better people because of them, and use them to help us grow as people.
Focusing on such things as poverty or materialism hurts ourselves and hurts others who are a part of our lives. The effort should be to be the best person possible, love yourself and love others which I believe is true spirituality.

[martha]

I will try to clarify a little and question a little;

Luguber, when I say the definition of sin is........, I am using the dictionary definition of sin, not necessarily my own.

Taphophilia's explanation is very good.

Master Vigil, if we take a vow of simplicity which leads to humility, the key to enlightenment, how does one say that it is not necessary? Is it not necessary to find this simplicity to lift ourselves and each other? Are we only here for self?
When we have become enlightened and begin to relieve ourselves of the hold that this world has upon us, is that not a form of poverty? Would we not try to take a vow of this "poverty" or simplicity to achieve the saving of our own soul and the souls of others? (salvation)

I await........for I have not yet achieved this state . I am still a work in progress.

[Rev. Rex]

I think that the best way to put it is that one cannot serve two masters. If a person is striving to gain material wealth, they cannot at the same time strive to the utmost to gain spiritual enlightenment, no matter how important that might seem to be to them. In our society, 'money' is often strived toward like a god, and the result isn't often growth or happiness. But if a person turns inward and allows themselves to truly see themselves, good and bad, they will often find a balance and a serenity. When that happens, they begin to understand that comforts and possessions are empty, short lasting, and do nothing to fulfill a person. "Give me but a tall ship and a star to steer her by." TS Lawrence wasn't talking about this topic, but his words apply.