It may be contrary to some interpretations of religions. There are many of us who have looked deeper into the message. Some people look at scripture as the product rather than the instructions. This is like buying a new DVD and trying to make the instructions play the movies, rather than using the DVD player.

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InterfaithForums.com-Where your ideas and beliefs count.

In a usual grammatically correct sentence in English, there is a subject and a predicate (with some "pathological exceptions", of course).

Inherent in the concept of nonduality is the idea that unity of nothing being actually separate, such as subject and predicate.

Thus, nonduality is inherently quite difficult to describe in English. A typical grammatically correct sentence automatically already presumes a separateness. For example, "I saw a tree" automatically implies that what is meant by the symbol I, the process of seeing, and the object of the seeing, are different. From a nondualistic point of view, what is meant by the symbol I (the observer), seeing (the process of observation), and the seen (the observed), are the same.

The statement "I saw a tree" is nonsense from a nondualistic point of view, and, similarly, any statement that starts with "nonduality is..." is also nonsense in the sense of incapable of being grammatically correct while simultaneously being an apt description of what nonduality is.

Perhaps it can be hinted at and an intuitive spark of understanding of what it is can be conveyed through words, such as how the Tao Te Ching refers to The Way in a roundabout way, often suggesting it's technically not describable.



I am human. -- implies a separation between what is meant by the symbol I, the process/state of existing, and that which is meant by the concept of human. From a nondual perspective, there is no difference between the three.

I am. -- implies a separation between what is meant by the symbol I and the process/state of existing, also false from a nondual perspective.

I. -- No separation is implied and nondualistically correct but now the grammatical correctness, expressive power, and apparent content have been lost.

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peace for all
love for all
bliss for all

...may your journey be graceful...

If anything is possible, then the statement, "anything is possible," is possibly false.

Thank you MT for the very thought provoking post.

In my Tolle studies we are told to not label anything as we are out in nature. This also means don't label yourself. I see that by not labeling there is no separation. Also, instead of saying "I am" I have been asking "who am I?" That is a question for which there is no answer. We lose ourselves in the labeling.

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InterfaithForums.com-Where your ideas and beliefs count.

It becomes increasingly difficult for me to understand what is the driving force in the search for non-duality.

Help me understand. You say, "we lose ourselves in the labeling" as if losing yourself would be a bad thing. And yet, from what I understand, you are seeking the ultimate losing of yourself. There can be no "self," no sense of "you" separate from anything else that is, in a true non-dual state.

What is it about this business of the "self," the individual, that is at once so distasteful that many want to lose it, and yet so important that we are terrified to lose it?

And why is seeking a deeper understanding of who I am such a wrong thing? This is the part that is most remote from my own experience. I like me. I want to be me. I do not want to give up the me that I know in order to be something else that is not me, and that therefore -- from the perspective of myself -- cannot exist anyway.

(That last point is very difficult. Let me try to clarify. We've heard it said that everything that I know, everything that I can imagine, is encapsulated within my own conscious or unconscious thought, but it is all -- every last bit of it -- my own mental construct. When, in a non-dual state, there are no more mental constructs -- which there could not be from MTs post -- then there also cannot be a "me" to even know about it. So a non-dual state, from my own point-of-view, cannot exist.)

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evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.

I don't know if I am up for this...this am...I will give it a whirl.....

reading and hearing Tolle is for me but confirmation...sharing of a insight might be a good word to use...

I like you EH...love who that I am...and know for myself it is my existence that I have experienced that has me where I am now....If one watches there life as the movie that is your own....let go of the teachings of what you should be..who you should be...how you should look...take each every clip and notice the u and the part you play...then re-watch the life movie again now seeing the parts of a few others..and continue this movie...it shows the value of each step of life on this earth and its equal value.....for most watching there life movie..one sees what one has been taught to become...but when you replay it for clarity I think you can see the u in-spite of the others around and there teaching...no matter how well intended or ill intended.....now from this life movie ...here we are and for me it opens the space to see the equal the one the no lesser or greater then .....you EH to me seem to say most often what the majority here say...the difference is sometimes comes across with a negative spin and others come across with a positive spin...balance is a beautiful thing...I don't think there is anything to get...your doing it...living it...being it...we are doing what we do...the goal if there need be one...I think would be to continue to share goodness with all to understand that we truly are hurting ourselves when we hurt another when that gets closer to the heart of our understanding things..we will continue to improve....there is nothing to lose...there is nothing to gain...just be.....I think the educated and certain personality type hear these words often and maybe make to much of them....the words I see but as yet another personality type and we all say similar things with our own spin ...accent ..dialect....and often debates...conversations...comparisons ...dialog ...hit each of us different for the spot we are in ...it may help or hinder for the moment...to only look back and the at movie at a later time to see...it was a well played part ...

I am not certain what if anything you will gain from this post.....perhaps I will try to look at your post again after work...in the mean time...answers are individual...we most often I think have answers they show up with the question most often...we then toss them out and take all other answers and stir the answer jar...and as time goes...we then see our answers played out in our life movie....

I came accross this article that reflects my beliefs and findings to the "t":

Nonduality - Rising Above Illusion
By Remez Sasson

The philosophy of Nonduality, or as it is called in India, Advaita-Vedanta, says that there is just One Spirit in the Universe, and that everything, living or inanimate, is an inseparable and indivisible part of this One Spirit. Nonduality further says that it is only illusion, caused by the mind and the play of the senses, which makes us regard the world and everything in it, as real and separate from us.

For someone not familiar with this philosophy, it might sound strange and even weird, but once understood, it can completely change one's attitude and perspective about life.

Imagine a state, in which you feel oneness with the Universe, enjoying bliss and peace of mind, and at the same time acting and functioning normally in your day-to-day life. A state of being active in the world, yet maintaining a state of inner detachment. In this state you are aware of your oneness with the One Spirit, and also aware that the One Spirit is acting and manifesting through everything, matter, plants, trees, animals and people. This is the experience of nonduality in its highest form.

Our thoughts and five senses draw the mind outside, to the external world, and obscure the awareness of the consciousness that is beyond the mind. Through meditation, we gain inner peace and the ability to silence the mind and lift up the obscuring veil of thoughts, and are then able to taste and experience the "state" of nonduality. In this state of inner silence, one rises above the illusion of identification with the mind, thoughts and ego, gets beyond the illusion of separateness, and realizes the oneness with the One Spirit. It is as if a new sort of consciousness dawns, and one sees the world in a different way.

With this kind of consciousness we are able to allow the mind to be active or command it to be silent at our command. It becomes our faithful servant, instead of being our master. We function very effectively in the outer world, yet our basis is in pure, calm and limitless consciousness, which is not attached to anything and not limited by anything. In this state, we live and view the world from the nonduality point of view.

Though in our day-today life we regard other people, as separate from us, as separate units, this is only a mental viewpoint, convenient for functioning in our day to day life. From a higher state of consciousness, all are One, and the terms "I", "you", "he", "she" and "they" are not real. There is only the One Spirit, Consciousness, which manifests in limitless forms and ways. The outer forms might be different, but the Spirit within them is one undivided Spirit. It is the mind, which lets us believe and feel that we are separate from others, but we are all part of the the same One Spirit manifesting and expressing itself through diffrent forms.

The concept of nonduality is not a strange or weird idea. It can be experienced and lived right here and now, no matter where you are, and without attracting anybody's attention. It is an inner state of consciousness, not an external state.

It is possible to realize the meaning of nonduality and live in nonduality, which can lead to what is termed as spiritual awakening and enlightenment, in an ashram or a cave, and it is also equally possible to do so while living in a town or city, with family and a job. All you need is a strong desire, dedication, an open mind, and the willingness to invest time and effort in pursuit if this goal.

Most people cannnot afford to leave everything behind, in order to meditate and lead a purely spiritual life. Theye need to work and support their family, and can therefore devote only part of the day to spiritual pursuits. The good news is that you can walk on the inner path of spirituality and nonduality, meditation and self realization, without abandoning your family, job or outer life style. With proper planning, it is possible to find the time and the energy for the inner work.

Meditation and walking on the spiritual path, which can lead to understanding and experiencing nonduality, can be practiced anywhere, without making external changes in your life. You can stay with your job and family, and still make spiritual progress and realize the true meaning nonduality.

Look within you, search for the source of your thoughts, where they come from, and you will start to be aware of your true essence and the consciousness beyond your mind. You will then start to understand what nonduality really is. A peaceful mind is a great help in realizing nonduality, as well as concentration, meditation, reading of spiritual literaure, and when possible, the proximity and guidance of true spiritual teachers.

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May your awareness be perfection

Nonduality is non-describable, it is an experience, not a thing, because as soon as you use something to describe it, you have excluded something else. It isn't ego, and it isn't ego-less. It isn't God and it isn't God-less. Its both at the same time and neither as well. And if that makes sense, then you really aren't any closer than you thought you were...or any further away, for that matter.

-TC

T.C. If it's an expereince .....then it can be described. It is not an experience but an awareness of itself. Or conscious and unconscious at the same time...yet beyond.

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May your awareness be perfection

My point is any word you use to describe it is inadequate, its an approximation that leaves too much out because it cannot be rationally reigned in. I don't care if you use the word "experience" or "awareness" or "itself", they are all wrong and right at the same time. To elaborate:

If I say its an "experience", well then I have discounted a "non-experience", and if non-duality does not include "non-experiences", is it really non-dual?

If I say its an "awareness", well then I have discounted a "non-awareness", and if non-duality does not include "non-awarenesses", is it really non-dual?

If I say its an "God itself", well then I have discounted a "godless other", and if non-duality does not include "godless others", is it really non-dual?

That's the point. As soon as you attempt to describe "it", you've discounted and not included something else because description is dual. I have heard some traditions call it "a first without a second". That's as good as any other, but nonduality must include "the many" as well as "the one", or again, it isn't really non-dual.

-TC