Problems Abound For The Christian Position

[shaw-n]

PROBLEMS ABOUND FOR THE CHRISTIAN POSITION

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The following few "problems" will point our some of the glaring discrepancies and inconsistencies in the missionaries' arguments:—

Problem: The Jewish Messiah is to be a human being born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth, as Christianity claims.

Nowhere does the Jewish Bible or Prophets say that the Messiah would be a god or God-like. The very idea that God would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts the concept of God as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe, according to the Jewish Scriptures, that God alone is to be worshipped, not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the Messiah himself.

Nowhere does the Bible predict that the Messiah will be born to a virgin. In fact, virgins never give birth anywhere in the Bible. This idea is to be found only in pagan mythology. To the Jewish mind, the very idea that God would plant a seed in a woman is unnecessary and unnatural.

Answer for yourself: After all — what is accomplished by this claim?

Answer for yourself: What positive purpose does it serve?

The claim that Mary did not have natural relations with her husband must have made the Jews of that time suspect her of wrongdoing. The New Testament (the Christian Bible) admits as much when it says (Matthew 1:19), "Then Joseph her (Mary's) husband, being a just man, and not willing to shame her in public, decided to divorce her quietly." The whole idea of virgin birth serves no purpose, except to attract pagans to Christianity.

Problem: The Jewish Messiah is expected to return the Jews to their land. Yeshua was born while the Jews still lived in their land, before they had gone into exile. He could not restore them to their land because they were still living in it!

Problem: The true Messiah is to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem — but Yeshua lived while the Temple was still standing.

Problem: The Jewish Bible says that the Messiah will redeem Israel. In the case of Yeshua, the very opposite took place. Not long after his death, the Holy Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, Jerusalem was laid to waste, and the Jews went into exile to begin a 1900-year-long night of persecution—largely at the hands of the followers of this self-styled "Messiah!"

Problem: The Prophets in the Bible foretold (Isaiah 45) that when the Messiah comes, all the nations of the world will unite to acknowledge and worship the one true God. "The knowledge of God will fill the earth. The world will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the seas" (Isaiah 11:9). Nothing of this nature took place following the death of Yeshua. On the contrary, Islam developed and became the religion of the Arabs and many other nations, Christianity broke up into many conflicting sects which were constantly at war with each other, and a large part of the world continued to worship idols. Even today the world is far from the worship of one God.

Problem: When the true Messiah comes, his influence will extend over all peoples who will worship God at the Temple in Jerusalem. The Prophet says, "For My House will become the House of Prayer for all the Nations." This has obviously not yet taken place, and, therefore, the Messiah has not yet come.

Problem: During the time of the Messiah a new spirit will rule the world, and man will cease committing sins and crimes; this will especially apply to the Jews. The Torah (in Deuteronomy 30:6) says that "God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your children to love God." The Prophets taught: "And your people are all righteous, they will inherit the earth forever" (Isaiah 60:21); "In that day I will seek the sins of Israel and there will be none" (Jeremiah 50:20); "I will give you a new heart and a new spirit—and you will obey My laws and commandments and do them" (Ezekiel 36:26,27). Soon after the time of Yeshua, ignorance of God and even ignorance of science and philosophy filled the earth, as the "Dark Ages" overtook the world.

Problem: The true Messiah is to reign as King of the Jews. Yeshua's career as described in the New Testament lasted all of three years, at the end of which he was crucified by the Romans as a common criminal. He never functioned as anything but a wandering preacher and "faith healer"; certainly, he held no official position or exercised any rule of any kind.

Problem: During the time of the Messiah, prophecy will return to the Jewish people and the presence of God will dwell amongst us. (Joel 3,1) "And after that I will pour my spirit on all of mankind and your sons and daughters will prophesy." These predictions, too, are yet to be fulfilled.

Problem: One of the Messiah's major tasks is to bring peace to the entire world. In the time of the Messiah, there are to be no more wars, and the manufacture of arms will cease. The Prophet Isaiah (2:4) says, "And they shalt beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Yet, Christian nations are continually at war and wars have been going on almost non-stop since the time of Yeshua up to and including today.

Problem: The New Testament itself claims that the prophecies concerning the Messiah were to be realized in Yeshua's own generation. Mark (13:30) clearly says, "truthfully I say unto you that this generation shall not pass until all these things be done." In Matthew 4, Yeshua is quoted saying that “The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." Almost 2,000 years have passed and still nothing has been accomplished.

Problem: Nowhere does the Jewish Bible teach the Messiah would come once, be killed, and be return once, be killed, and return again in a “second coming.” The idea of a second coming is a pure rationalization of Yeshua’ failure to function in any way as a Messiah, or to fulfill any of the prophecies of the Torah or the Prophets. The idea is purely a Christian invention, with no foundation in the Bible, and created only to explain away why Yeshua did not return in the generation of his followers as the New Testament attests.

Problem: The Bible says that the Messiah would be descended in a direct line from King David. However, if God was Yeshua's "father," is it not somewhat ridiculous to claim that he is descended from King David on his father's side?

Problem: Why do some missionaries insist on distorting the meaning of the words of the prophets in order to substantiate their claims? (An example: The Hebrew term in Isaiah "almah" which means a "young woman" is mistranslated as "virgin.” Honest Christian scholars now acknowledge that this is a pious fraud and now (see the new Protestant "Reviser Standard Version" of the Bible) translate the word correctly. This is but one of many mistranslations or forced translations

Problem: While on the cross Yeshua is quoted as saying, "Forgive them, Father, for they (the Jews) know not what they do." Why do some Christians insist on persecuting the Jews if Yeshua himself gave instructions to forgive them?

Problem: If his rising from the dead was so crucial to demonstrate who he was, why did this take place in secret and not in the presence of his "thousands" of devotees?

Problem: Yeshua claimed that he did not intend to change the Laws of Moses—"Think not that I have come to abolish the Law (Torah) and the Prophets, I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew 5). Later on, the New Testament attests that he himself abrogated some of the laws, while his followers eventually abolished or changed nearly all of them. Personally I believe the New Testament to be less than credible in describing events where Yeshua supposedly broke the Law or changed the Law.

Problem: However, the Torah itself clearly states in many places that its laws are eternal, never to be abolished. And even the Christians acknowledge that the Jewish Bible is the word of God. If the Torah is eternal and Yeshua himself claims to have no intention of abolishing or changing it, why do the Christians celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday when God clearly calls the Saturday-Sabbath an Eternal Covenant? Why do Christians eat pig when the Torah forbids it? What reason can Christians give for not celebrating Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur which are clearly spelled out in the Torah? This same argument applies to hundreds of other Torah laws that are ignored by Christians.

On the other hand, Christmas and Easter are not mentioned in either the Jewish Bible or the Christian "New Testament"— these festivals are pagan in origin, adapted for Christian use. But Pesach, Sukkos and Shavuos are clearly spoken of in the Bible. On top of which, Yeshua nowhere requests that the Biblical festivals no longer be observed.

Problem: Christians teach the philosophy of "turning the other cheek" and "loving your enemy." Do you know of any Christian nations that live by this impractical ethic, or even take it seriously?

Problem: The many Christian statements about God being "Love" have been borrowed from the Jewish Bible and the Jewish religion. Among many such quotations from our Torah are: "Love thy neighbor as thyself"; "Love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt"; "And you shall love the L-rd thy God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."

If God is "Love," how can Christians explain the silence and indifference of the Church and most Christian nations while six million Jews were being gassed and burned by the Germans? Why the stone-like silence during the Six Day War? Where was Christian love during the Spanish Inquisition and the hundreds of pogroms inspired by priests and monks?

Problem: Judaism believes that God is eternal, above and beyond time. God cannot be born, He cannot die, He cannot suffer, He can not "become flesh," nor can He be divided into sections ("Father, Son, and Holy Ghost"). These are pagan notions. Certainly no "God" or "Son of God" could have called out on the cross, as Yeshua is supposed to have said, "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" If he was God's son, he would at least have said, "My father. . ."

Problem: If Yeshua was really the Messiah, why does the New Testament admit that all the rabbis of the time, without one exception, rejected his claim? Why was there not one man of learning, nor one prominent leader who accepted him?

Problem: If Yeshua was the Messiah, why did the overwhelming majority of his own people, the Jews living at that time, reject him? Why did his followers consist of a handful of people, almost all of whom were poorly educated? Why did his own family turn against him?

Problem: Who was in a position to judge if he was or was not the Messiah—his own people, who anxiously awaited the arrival of the Messiah, or pagan peoples who had no understanding of what the concept really meant?

Problem: Yeshua commanded his disciples to preach to the Jews only and not to the gentiles (Matthew 10), yet his disciples disobeyed him and did just the opposite. He clearly thought of himself as the Messiah of the Jews and of no one else. Yet, he was accepted by foreign nations and not by the Jews. Why?

Problem: If God has "rejected" the Jews for not "accepting Yeshua" as Christians claim, why have the Jewish People managed to survive 2,000 years of Christian persecution? How do Christians explain the miracle of Jewish survival? Why has God restored the city of Jerusalem and the Land of Israel to His "rejected" people?

How do they explain the fact that the Jewish people has re-established its national life in its ancient homeland, and is in possession of the City of Jerusalem? These are living historic facts without parallel.

Must not the Christians now acknowledge that the re-emergence of a Jewish State is indeed an unfolding and realization of Bible prophecy in our day? Does this not demonstrate that the many Biblical prophecies that speak of the return of the Jew to his land refer to the Jews and not to anyone else? (The Christians often refer to themselves as the "real Jews"—the "New Israel," i.e. God chose them because the Jews rejected Yeshua.)

Isn't this theological "slap in the face" the reason for the Pope's refusal to recognize Israel, and for Christian silence during the Six Day War?

Problem: The Prophets contain many prophecies concerning the end of days and the time of the Messiah that have not yet taken place. These will all take place when the Messiah comes.

Why do we need a Messiah in the first place? In order to teach the Torah to the world and to establish "The Kingdom of God on Earth." If the Christians have done away with the laws of the Torah, if they no longer regard the Torah as valid, what is left to teach mankind? Nowhere does the Torah suggest that it is to be abolished by the Messiah. On the contrary, the Torah is eternal, and the purpose of the Messiah is to bring us to the day when all of the Jewish people will observe the Torah and all of mankind will acknowledge its truths.

Problem: Nowhere does the Torah state that someone else's death can bring forgiveness to a person's sins. On the contrary, each man will be punished for his sins, and each man must repent for his sins alone. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die"; "Sons will not be punished for the sins of their fathers." The idea that someone else's death 1,900 years ago can somehow bring forgiveness from God for my sins is absurd and unfounded. Each person must return to God, each sinner must change his own ways and seek God's forgiveness.

[Nick_A]

Why equate Judaism with Christianity? They are complimentary but surely not the same. Christianity represents the New Covenant. Where secular Judaism at the time was concerned with what we DO, Christianity was the concern for what we ARE. These are two completely different perspectives.

[arthra]

If Yeshua was really the Messiah, why does the New Testament admit that all the rabbis of the time, without one exception, rejected his claim? Why was there not one man of learning, nor one prominent leader who accepted him?

Problem: If Yeshua was the Messiah, why did the overwhelming majority of his own people, the Jews living at that time, reject him? Why did his followers consist of a handful of people, almost all of whom were poorly educated? Why did his own family turn against him?

- Posted above by Shaw-ri

Jesus to me was something of a rebel.. He didn't attend Rabbinic schools for knowledge but He was I believe aware that the religion had become bound by regulations and a privileged priestly class had a strangle hold on the religion of the people.. that's why very few members of the then religious establishment acknowledged Him.

His teachings and practices were designed to restore a more spiritual kind of life to the religion. When He opposed the sacrificial system of the Temple this threatened the establishment and the martyrdom of Jesus followed..

Was He the Messiah?

I think so.. He offered a way out for the oppressed that no one had offered before... rather than armed revolution against Roman rule, Jesus advocated passive resistance. If the people had paid their taxes... Give unto Caesar what was Caesars... the taxes would be paid. Going the extra mile when given a burden and turning the other cheek when slapped were also part of His way. So maybe the Legions would have never marched on Jerusalem had His teachings been accepted.

- Art

[evangelicalhumanist]

Originally Posted by arthra

Was He the Messiah?

I think so..

Was He the Messiah?

Interesting that you chose "Messiah" rather than "Khristos." The Hebrew concept of Messiah was fully and completely human, albeit chosen by (and therefore "annointed") by God for earthly rule. If Jesus was that, then He was most assuredly not God.

[arthra]

Originally Posted by evangelicalhumanist

Was He the Messiah?

Interesting that you chose "Messiah" rather than "Khristos." The Hebrew concept of Messiah was fully and completely human, albeit chosen by (and therefore "annointed") by God for earthly rule. If Jesus was that, then He was most assuredly not God.

The Baha'i view is that Isa.. Jesus may peace and blessing be upon Him was a Manifestation of God.

Messiah is المسيح‎, al-Masīḥ also the word used in Qur'an 3:45..

Arabic and Hebrew being sister languages...

Here's some root meanings of the word:

c.1300, Messias, from L.L. Messias, from Gk. Messias, from Aramaic meshiha and Heb. mashiah "anointed" (of the Lord), from mashah "anoint." This is the word rendered in Septuagint as Gk. Khristos (see Christ). In O.T. prophetic writing, it was used of an expected deliverer of the Jewish nation.

O.E. crist, from L. Christus, from Gk. khristos "the anointed" (translation of Heb. mashiah, see messiah), from khriein "to rub, anoint," title given to Jesus of Nazareth. The L. term drove out O.E. hæland "healer" as the preferred descriptive term for Jesus. A title, treated as a proper name in O.E., but not regularly capitalized until 17c. Pronunciation with long -i- is result of Ir. missionary work in England, 7c.-8c. The Ch- form, regular since c.1500, was rare before.

And an excellent article from wikipedia:

Messiah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

- Art

[Harvey1]

Oh boy, an argument established by citing an overwhelming number of arguments...

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: The Jewish Messiah is to be a human being born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth, as Christianity claims.

Let me quote just one prophetic verse:

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. (Daniel 7:13)

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Nowhere does the Bible predict that the Messiah will be born to a virgin. In fact, virgins never give birth anywhere in the Bible. This idea is to be found only in pagan mythology. To the Jewish mind, the very idea that God would plant a seed in a woman is unnecessary and unnatural.

Another scripture:

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. (Isa. 7:14)

The Hebrew word used for "virgin" is almah, but Septuagint translators used the Greek word parthenos which in Greek means a virgin. There are two major words in Hebrew that mean "virgin," and almah is used sometimes in the OT to mean a virgin. In fact, this is why the Septuagint translators used that particular translation. Whether you agree or disagree that this was a good translation is not really the issue. The important point is that Greek speaking Jews who were most of the Jews living in Jesus' day, thought of Immanuel as being born of a virgin.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

The whole idea of virgin birth serves no purpose, except to attract pagans to Christianity.

Probably not the case. It was most likely an issue dealing with a rational understanding of the incarnation.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: The Jewish Messiah is expected to return the Jews to their land. Yeshua was born while the Jews still lived in their land, before they had gone into exile. He could not restore them to their land because they were still living in it!

Most Jews did not live in Israel after the Babylonian captivity and the first Ptolemy took 120,000 Jews to Egypt.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: The true Messiah is to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem — but Yeshua lived while the Temple was still standing.

I think you are quoting this Daniel 9 scripture:

24Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.
25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.
26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.

Notice that the Messiah comes after the temple being re-built.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: The Jewish Bible says that the Messiah will redeem Israel. In the case of Yeshua, the very opposite took place. Not long after his death, the Holy Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, Jerusalem was laid to waste, and the Jews went into exile to begin a 1900-year-long night of persecution—largely at the hands of the followers of this self-styled "Messiah!"

Of course, the Christian message through Paul is that Jesus' blood did redeem Israel...

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: The Prophets in the Bible foretold (Isaiah 45) that when the Messiah comes, all the nations of the world will unite to acknowledge and worship the one true God. "The knowledge of God will fill the earth. The world will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the seas" (Isaiah 11:9). Nothing of this nature took place following the death of Yeshua. On the contrary, Islam developed and became the religion of the Arabs and many other nations, Christianity broke up into many conflicting sects which were constantly at war with each other, and a large part of the world continued to worship idols. Even today the world is far from the worship of one God.

Christianity teaches that the Messiah will come again. The first visitation was as the suffering servant:

The Sovereign LORD has given me an instructed tongue,
to know the word that sustains the weary.
He wakens me morning by morning,
wakens my ear to listen like one being taught.

5 The Sovereign LORD has opened my ears,
and I have not been rebellious;
I have not drawn back.

6 I offered my back to those who beat me,
my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard;
I did not hide my face
from mocking and spitting.

7 Because the Sovereign LORD helps me,
I will not be disgraced.
Therefore have I set my face like flint,
and I know I will not be put to shame.

(Isa. 50:4-9)

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: When the true Messiah comes, his influence will extend over all peoples who will worship God at the Temple in Jerusalem. The Prophet says, "For My House will become the House of Prayer for all the Nations." This has obviously not yet taken place, and, therefore, the Messiah has not yet come.

Christianity says that this will happen when Jesus comes again.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: During the time of the Messiah a new spirit will rule the world, and man will cease committing sins and crimes; this will especially apply to the Jews. The Torah (in Deuteronomy 30:6) says that "God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your children to love God." The Prophets taught: "And your people are all righteous, they will inherit the earth forever" (Isaiah 60:21); "In that day I will seek the sins of Israel and there will be none" (Jeremiah 50:20); "I will give you a new heart and a new spirit—and you will obey My laws and commandments and do them" (Ezekiel 36:26,27).

This is the chief message of Christianity that by receiving the Holy Spirit that you become right before God and your sin has been removed.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: The true Messiah is to reign as King of the Jews. Yeshua's career as described in the New Testament lasted all of three years, at the end of which he was crucified by the Romans as a common criminal. He never functioned as anything but a wandering preacher and "faith healer"; certainly, he held no official position or exercised any rule of any kind.

Second Coming...

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: During the time of the Messiah, prophecy will return to the Jewish people and the presence of God will dwell amongst us. (Joel 3,1) "And after that I will pour my spirit on all of mankind and your sons and daughters will prophesy." These predictions, too, are yet to be fulfilled.

At Pentecost this scripture began in its fulfillment.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: One of the Messiah's major tasks is to bring peace to the entire world. In the time of the Messiah, there are to be no more wars, and the manufacture of arms will cease. The Prophet Isaiah (2:4) says, "And they shalt beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Yet, Christian nations are continually at war and wars have been going on almost non-stop since the time of Yeshua up to and including today.

Second Coming.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: The New Testament itself claims that the prophecies concerning the Messiah were to be realized in Yeshua's own generation. Mark (13:30) clearly says, "truthfully I say unto you that this generation shall not pass until all these things be done." In Matthew 4, Yeshua is quoted saying that “The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." Almost 2,000 years have passed and still nothing has been accomplished.

Immediately after this scripture is the Transfiguration. The Transfiguration depicts of the coming kingdom.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: Nowhere does the Jewish Bible teach the Messiah would come once, be killed, and be return once, be killed, and return again in a “second coming.” The idea of a second coming is a pure rationalization of Yeshua’ failure to function in any way as a Messiah, or to fulfill any of the prophecies of the Torah or the Prophets. The idea is purely a Christian invention, with no foundation in the Bible, and created only to explain away why Yeshua did not return in the generation of his followers as the New Testament attests.

Talk to TC. He thinks that Judaism did have the concept of a suffering Messiah. You guys who hate Christianity with a passion have to get your story straight (not to mention another hobby and need to get out more and have some fun once in a while...).

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: The Bible says that the Messiah would be descended in a direct line from King David. However, if God was Yeshua's "father," is it not somewhat ridiculous to claim that he is descended from King David on his father's side?

Paul, who wrote much closer to the lifeftime of Jesus, said that he was descended from David. Whether that means that Jesus was actually born of a literal virgin or not, the closeness of Paul to Jesus suggests that he was indeed a descendent of David.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: Why do some missionaries insist on distorting the meaning of the words of the prophets in order to substantiate their claims? (An example: The Hebrew term in Isaiah "almah" which means a "young woman" is mistranslated as "virgin.” Honest Christian scholars now acknowledge that this is a pious fraud and now (see the new Protestant "Reviser Standard Version" of the Bible) translate the word correctly. This is but one of many mistranslations or forced translations

It wasn't Christians that made this translation, it was the Jewish translators a few centuries prior to Jesus. Blame them.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: While on the cross Yeshua is quoted as saying, "Forgive them, Father, for they (the Jews) know not what they do." Why do some Christians insist on persecuting the Jews if Yeshua himself gave instructions to forgive them?

I sent an email to everyone. They promised to stop.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: If his rising from the dead was so crucial to demonstrate who he was, why did this take place in secret and not in the presence of his "thousands" of devotees?

There were 500 people according to Paul (I Cor. 15:3-11).

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: Yeshua claimed that he did not intend to change the Laws of Moses—"Think not that I have come to abolish the Law (Torah) and the Prophets, I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew 5). Later on, the New Testament attests that he himself abrogated some of the laws, while his followers eventually abolished or changed nearly all of them. Personally I believe the New Testament to be less than credible in describing events where Yeshua supposedly broke the Law or changed the Law.

The spirit of the law was not changed, but rather Christians understood that doing things like killing innocent cattle, etc., was rather ridiculous to make one righteous before God.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: However, the Torah itself clearly states in many places that its laws are eternal, never to be abolished. And even the Christians acknowledge that the Jewish Bible is the word of God. If the Torah is eternal and Yeshua himself claims to have no intention of abolishing or changing it, why do the Christians celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday when God clearly calls the Saturday-Sabbath an Eternal Covenant? Why do Christians eat pig when the Torah forbids it? What reason can Christians give for not celebrating Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur which are clearly spelled out in the Torah? This same argument applies to hundreds of other Torah laws that are ignored by Christians.

The days of the week are meaningless. To understand the God of the universe we ought not be thinking that God cares whether we eat bacon or not, but how we deal with others. Do we insult other people? Are we obcessive in attacking someone else's religion? These are the kinds of sins that are real sins before God.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

On the other hand, Christmas and Easter are not mentioned in either the Jewish Bible or the Christian "New Testament"— these festivals are pagan in origin, adapted for Christian use. But Pesach, Sukkos and Shavuos are clearly spoken of in the Bible. On top of which, Yeshua nowhere requests that the Biblical festivals no longer be observed.

The wave sheaf offering was on Sunday and represented an acceptable offering to remove sin. (This is the day that Jesus arose from the dead, btw.)

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: Christians teach the philosophy of "turning the other cheek" and "loving your enemy." Do you know of any Christian nations that live by this impractical ethic, or even take it seriously?

Nations aren't Christian. People who are committed to their religion are Christian (or Muslim, or Hindu, or Buddhist, or Jainist, etc.)

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: The many Christian statements about God being "Love" have been borrowed from the Jewish Bible and the Jewish religion. Among many such quotations from our Torah are: "Love thy neighbor as thyself"; "Love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt"; "And you shall love the L-rd thy God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."

Hence the spirit of the law...

Originally Posted by shaw-n

If God is "Love," how can Christians explain the silence and indifference of the Church and most Christian nations while six million Jews were being gassed and burned by the Germans? Why the stone-like silence during the Six Day War? Where was Christian love during the Spanish Inquisition and the hundreds of pogroms inspired by priests and monks?

Not everyone who professes Christianity lives by the words of Jesus (Mohammed, Gandhi, Moses, etc.).

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: Judaism believes that God is eternal, above and beyond time. God cannot be born, He cannot die, He cannot suffer, He can not "become flesh," nor can He be divided into sections ("Father, Son, and Holy Ghost"). These are pagan notions. Certainly no "God" or "Son of God" could have called out on the cross, as Yeshua is supposed to have said, "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" If he was God's son, he would at least have said, "My father. . ."

God is more attached to this world than you think. He does not allow evil and refuses to do anything about it. Rather, he becomes incarnate into the world and endures its suffering, even calling out as we do: "My God My God, why have you abandoned me?"

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: If Yeshua was really the Messiah, why does the New Testament admit that all the rabbis of the time, without one exception, rejected his claim? Why was there not one man of learning, nor one prominent leader who accepted him?

Paul, Nicodemus, etc. However, at the time there was political desire to subdue messianic thought to avoid confrontation with the Romans who were not keen on Jewish kings.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: If Yeshua was the Messiah, why did the overwhelming majority of his own people, the Jews living at that time, reject him? Why did his followers consist of a handful of people, almost all of whom were poorly educated? Why did his own family turn against him?

Nazareth was very close to Sepphoris, which at Jesus' birth was attacked by the Romans and the village burned. The people were chased all the way to southern Judea, and many horrible things happened. People were not in the mood for another upriser after having lost uncles, aunts, fathers, and mothers. You were better off in that society if you kept you mouth shut and focused on feeding your family.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: Who was in a position to judge if he was or was not the Messiah—his own people, who anxiously awaited the arrival of the Messiah, or pagan peoples who had no understanding of what the concept really meant?

Many people did convert. There existed a church in Judea until 70 AD, and many people fled into the desert (e.g., Petra). There was just found a cave in Judea where Christians most likely fled.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: Yeshua commanded his disciples to preach to the Jews only and not to the gentiles (Matthew 10), yet his disciples disobeyed him and did just the opposite. He clearly thought of himself as the Messiah of the Jews and of no one else. Yet, he was accepted by foreign nations and not by the Jews. Why?

He was accepted by Jews up until Paul decided to take the Gospel to the Gentiles. The Jewish authorities became alarmed at the speed by which Christianity was spreading, and then there existed a great deal of friction between the two emerging religions.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: If God has "rejected" the Jews for not "accepting Yeshua" as Christians claim, why have the Jewish People managed to survive 2,000 years of Christian persecution? How do Christians explain the miracle of Jewish survival? Why has God restored the city of Jerusalem and the Land of Israel to His "rejected" people?

Paul's book to the Romans shows that Christians never thought of the Jews as abandoned by God. They fully expected God to redeem Israel as prophesized.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

How do they explain the fact that the Jewish people has re-established its national life in its ancient homeland, and is in possession of the City of Jerusalem? These are living historic facts without parallel.

Well, a little help from the poor Palestianian populace, don't you think?

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Must not the Christians now acknowledge that the re-emergence of a Jewish State is indeed an unfolding and realization of Bible prophecy in our day? Does this not demonstrate that the many Biblical prophecies that speak of the return of the Jew to his land refer to the Jews and not to anyone else? (The Christians often refer to themselves as the "real Jews"—the "New Israel," i.e. God chose them because the Jews rejected Yeshua.)

I don't think so. It was poor decisions made by a few nations who had no right to put people on the land owned by other people. Well, it happened, and now we just have to make the best of it. They have to accept it, as does the world.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Isn't this theological "slap in the face" the reason for the Pope's refusal to recognize Israel, and for Christian silence during the Six Day War?

I doubt it. I don't know the details, but it is wrong to steal the land someone is living in.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: The Prophets contain many prophecies concerning the end of days and the time of the Messiah that have not yet taken place. These will all take place when the Messiah comes.

Why do we need a Messiah in the first place? In order to teach the Torah to the world and to establish "The Kingdom of God on Earth." If the Christians have done away with the laws of the Torah, if they no longer regard the Torah as valid, what is left to teach mankind? Nowhere does the Torah suggest that it is to be abolished by the Messiah. On the contrary, the Torah is eternal, and the purpose of the Messiah is to bring us to the day when all of the Jewish people will observe the Torah and all of mankind will acknowledge its truths.

God is a lawful being, and for that reason there are laws. But, the spiritual nature of God is that we seek how to apply those laws in context--not as some kind of stick to enforce on a public. The Messiah is needed to reconcile us to the Creator, and in the end, bring an everlasting Omega to all.

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Problem: Nowhere does the Torah state that someone else's death can bring forgiveness to a person's sins. On the contrary, each man will be punished for his sins, and each man must repent for his sins alone. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die"; "Sons will not be punished for the sins of their fathers." The idea that someone else's death 1,900 years ago can somehow bring forgiveness from God for my sins is absurd and unfounded. Each person must return to God, each sinner must change his own ways and seek God's forgiveness.

The debt that is paid by Christ's blood is not payment for poor morality, rather Christ's blood is to address a theological/ontological issue.

[Travis Clementsmith]

Originally Posted by Harvey1

Talk to TC. He thinks that Judaism did have the concept of a suffering Messiah. You guys who hate Christianity with a passion have to get your story straight (not to mention another hobby and need to get out more and have some fun once in a while...).

First of all, I don't "hate" Christianity. Why does being critical of something constitute "hate"?

Second of all, pot, this is the "kettle" telling all you Christian "pots" to get your story strait. There's not one unified Christian story, but you expect a unified criticism?

Third, I just got back from a three day camping trip. Your assumptions that because people have topics they like to talk about equates with a fixation on one thing is utterly ridiculous. Where were you when we were discussing consciousness and materialism or nondualism?

And, just for the record, why can't tormenting you be considered "fun"?

-TC

[Harvey1]

Originally Posted by Travis Clementsmith

First of all, I don't "hate" Christianity. Why does being critical of something constitute "hate"?

Well, if someone is going so much against the evidence that they do so no matter what, I