What is "The Good?"

[Nick_A]

Reading Shaw-n's latest post on the "Problems Abound For The Christian Position" thread leaves me with the scary feeling that if I thought that represents what Christianity is, I wouldn't have the high regard I do for it. When Christianity is secularized to death it is meaningless. Rather then argue secular perspectives I have to approach the relationship between Christianity and Judaism from a completely different perspective which is their essential aim. For want of a better term, taken as a whole I call it the "good." What is "the good" and what defines it?

"...It is not for man to seek, or even to believe in God. He has only to refuse to believe in everything that is not God. This refusal does not presuppose belief. It is enough to recognize, what is obvious to any mind, that all the goods of this world, past, present, or future, real or imaginary, are finite and limited and radically incapable of satisfying the desire which burns perpetually with in us for an infinite and perfect good... It is not a matter of self-questioning or searching. A man has only to persist in his refusal, and one day or another God will come to him."
-- Weil, Simone, ON SCIENCE, NECESSITY, AND THE LOVE OF GOD, edited by Richard Rees, London, Oxford University Press, 1968.- ©

Simone Asserts the human good as opposed to the secular or societal good is a need of the heart that originates beyond the confines of the earth.. The problem is the heart has turned to stone and as yet, except for a few, has not turned to flesh.

Ezekiel 36: 26

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

What then is the experience of the "infinite and perfect good?"

Matthew 12

34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

What is the "good of the heart?" Is it something that we do or something that we are? If we contradict ourselves in what we do, what does it say about what we are? Are we capable of becoming "one' with the "good" as Simone felt the need for, or does our nature deny us the potential to attain the "good treasure of the heart?"

Jacob Needleman in his book asks : "Why Can't We Be Good?"

Amazon.com: Why Can't We Be Good?: Jacob Needleman: Books

Clicking on "Search Inside" and then on 'excerpt," read why "Ideas Alone Are Not Enough." It seems that ideas themselves, as we normally take them in, do not touch the heart other than superficially. Again, we can BS all day with slogans and feel good platitudes but the problem is the fallen quality of the heart

"Simone Weil and the Intellect of Grace" by Dr. Henry Leroy Finch was written as he was dying so the book contains a lot of sincerity. In chapter 12: Time and Timelessness, he makes the following comparison between Judaism and Christianity:

................The law has a timeless character just because it is laid down once and for all as part of the timeless myth or timeless history of the people. Even when it is practiced by only a handful of people, it remains alive and authoritative. These Orthodox people are a demonstration of the original character of Judaism which did not distinguish the sacred from the secular and united the cultural, the biological, and the religious in one timeless system.

I turn to the Christian experience of time and timelessness. This is as much a closed book to Jews as the Jewish point of view is to Christians. But as the Jews have their treasure which is the treasure of the Law preserved in the torah, Christians too have their treasure, which is the spirit of Christ preserved in the Gospels.

If we study the Gospels we will find that it is life in the present - not in the timeless present of past and future, but in the (timeful) present of the NOW - that is the true essence of Christianity The secret of the teaching of Christ is that all true life is life in the present, as distinct from the past and the future. This is where reality is. If there is no experience of the present, as the now, then there is no real life at all.

So the good is in the quality of "now." Dr. Maurice Nicoll in his book: "The New Man" refers to becoming one with the good and suggests how far we are from it. To leave Plato's cave is to become the New Man. It seems that we need new wineskins for new wine to begin to understand the depth of these ideas in the real meaning of the word "understand." From "The New Man:"

(John xv, 5) Christ relates the following parable about a vineyard:

"A certain man had a fig−tree planted in his vineyard; and he came seeking fruit thereon, and found none. And he said unto the vinedresser, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig−tree, and find none: cut it down: why doth it also cumber the ground? And he answering saith unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it; and if it bear fruit thenceforth, well; but if not, thou shalt cut it down. " (Luke xiii, 6−9)

From this point of view Man was regarded as capable of a special growth, a special inner development, and "vineyards" were established to make this development possible. Of course, they were not actual vineyards. They were schools of teaching. What did they teach? They taught, first of all, the knowledge that could lead, if practiced, to the higher level of development inherent in Man. What they taught a man was that he was an individual—that is, unique—who could reach this higher state of himself and that this was his real meaning and that this only could satisfy him most deeply. They began with teaching this Truth—or knowledge of this special Truth—but they led to something else. They led from Truth to a definite state of a man where he acted no longer from the Truth that brought him up to this level, but from the level itself. This was sometimes called Good. All Truth must lead to some good state as its goal. This was the idea belonging to the term "vineyard". Wine was produced. A man began to act from Good, not Truth, thus becoming a New Man.

The law in Judaism is truth but secular Judaism as in secular Christianity or secular anything is unaware that the "good" is other than a societal "good" and beyond it. It underestimates the importance of the quality of "Now."

Christianity is a part of a perennial teaching that asserts Man's potential for conscious evolution called re-birth and the direction of re-birth is the direction of the"good." The law seeks to bring man to the awareness of the good while Christianity through the conscious carrying of ones cross opens the heart with the help of the Spirit. Both paths seek the good but in completely different ways. To make matters worse, secularism has damaged the awakening qualities of both paths. I know the damage done by the devolution of Christianity into the many facets of Christendom.

So anyone seriously wanting to compare Christianity and Judaism and understand how the New Covenant and its emphasis on re-birth relates to the law and its emphasis on societal interaction has to begin with how they define the "good? If their concern is only for the secular good, this is one popular conception. If another defines the good as an objective quality the heart coming to flesh and opening can be drawn to, this is their path.

But to try and make Jesus into some secular political Jewish Rabbi that got caught is just ludicrous. Secular Jews have their concept of societal good as the highest of importance. Christianity asserts re-birth in order to experience the good and allowing morality to become a natural expression of the "good" as a part of oneself is another. Of course with Judaism and Christianity devolving into secular hypocrisy, it is only hypocrisy that they do have in common on the surface. But this cannot stop the sincere seeker from pondering what the "good" means for them. Does the law lead to the "good" for the Jew and does consciously carrying ones cross reveal the good of the heart for the Christian? If it doesn't and we are not even drawn to it other then in fantasy, is it the fault of either Judaism or Christianity or is it the result of our becoming secularized?

Defining the good can be done superficially and with some usual platitude or it can be the result of sincere pondering. The more the "good' is understood for what it is IMO the more people will see that Christianity and Judaism are actually complimentary since they both can lead to the objective "good."

[shaw-n]

Christianity is not IMO complimentary with Judaism as it figures it replaces/supplants it.
It is idolatrous as it places another god between man and God as an intercessor which is not required.
This is emanation theology and is the reason for the fall of babel as spoken in the traditions, also the golden calf incident.
It is also the core of the zohar.
There are many good ideas espoused in christianity, but they are lost amidst the dogma about salvation from hell, etc. And people could be better served by following other ideologies.
Rabbi Hillel was asked to sum up the Torah and he came up with this:
"That which is hateful to you, do not do unto others, all the rest is commentary".
I know that I have criticized christianity plenty even on this forum, and I don't do it to be antagonistic, as that is hateful to me, but personally, I was victimized psychologically by believing such nonsense as christianity promotes for many years and so I speak out so as to be proactive in getting people to at least think about what they believe so as to assist in changing the situation if at all possible. It is my contribution and it is constructive criticism given with good intent.

When you wake up from the dreamtime of the cave, then you realize that all the religious codes of laws are merely tutors which lead you to a righteous/good life which seeks the highest rather than the lowest.
Such things don't make you perfect, but they set you on the path of the good.

[shaw-n]

I found this Nick and thought you might find it of interest:

I am surrounded by an immense sea of information and I am a receiving devise within it. But I have a very small range—sight, hearing, taste, smell and tactile sensations—the five organs of sense. If we could increase the sensitivity of these sense organs, beyond their limitations, then we’d be able to perceive the true world.


Kabbalah develops a new organ of sense, a screen with which we can perceive not only the bodies, but also the souls—the Upper Forces—and how these forces influence our world in their gradual descend from the Upper World by way of Upper Governance.


..the miracle truth will radiate, and the mouth will utter only the truth. And all that will be revealed in confidence—Only you will see, but none other!

Baal HaSulam


You know there are stereoscopic images created in such a way that it consists of layers. If one learns to defocus the concentration of your eye, then the hidden layers—they come forth and they reveal the life inside the picture. It’s similar with Kabbalah. It allows one to develop the sixth sense organ and to tune it to such a frequency that allows you to see the world in its entirety as a Universe of souls, of existence before and after death. It allows you to answer the question about the meaning of life—before it begins and after it ends. It helps you to act correctly, so that this life will be spent effectively. It helps you to see your mission in all of your life cycles up to the present and after this life. You enter a level of existence where you experience eternity and perfection.


Kabbalah is based only on developing only the sixth sense organ, while the other five should be developed as usual. Meaning that a person should by no means isolate himself or limit himself in anything. A person needs to work, have a family and live among other people like him and to be an absolutely normal person, giving and receiving from the society that he lives in. That’s precisely the state that’s necessary to develop the sixth organ of sense inside of him. If a person begins to use the Kabbalistic method to advance on his own to the Upper World, by that he improves the quality of the events that will happen to him in the way that he senses them. To the measure that he willingly approaches the Upper World, he changes the governance of the Upper Force over him from negative to positive.


The illumination surrounding one who engages in the study of Kabbalah, imparts one with sensation of yearning for the Upper Bestowing One, with an abundance of purity, which brings one much closer to reaching perfection.

Baal HaSulam


In principal, the entire process of humanity’s development ensures that every person, regardless of who he is or where he is, achieves that ultimate level of existence.


Man is the one and only creature that was made to cleave to the Upper. Man is placed between perfection and deficiencies, and he is able to attain perfection.

Ramhal
*************************************

The Sixth Sense | kabbalah.info

[Nick_A]

Shaw-n

Christianity cannot replace Judaism nor was it intended to do so. It introduces the conscious element that is repulsive to collective fallen being referred to in Christianity as the "World." Christianity must be rejected by the world since it threatens its fallen secular mindset.

Jesus and others must be intermediaries between Man in the "World" and its source. Man in the world living in imagination denies any contact with the Divine. Man needs help in awakening. Denial assures the status quo and the lawful cycles of Man's being in response to external influences including the cycles of war and peace.

I don't think you ever were exposed to Christianity but rather some facet of Christendom. Christianity promotes re-birth and the necessity to consciously carry ones cross to experience reality that with the help of the spirit leads to re-birth. I cannot see this psychologically damaging you. All I'm suggesting is to stop using the expression Christianity and refer to the particular sect or cult in question by name. If I were to assert my opinion of what "women" do, I would be called sexist and whatever for trying to stereotype all women as the same. Yet in these times this idea of lumping everything into the term Christianity rather than expressing the logical devolution into "Christendom" seems horribly naive to me.

IMO it would be far more constructive to admit Jewish and Christendom hypocrisy as normal for the human condition rather then create an opposition between two legitimate paths that have the created purpose of leading to the good which, as we are, we collectively do our best to destroy..

[shaw-n]

Well, I was raised in a protestant environment which was varied over the years from Baptist then Presbyterian and then Pentecostal.
I was later baptized in a Baptist church that I spent time in as an assistant youth pastor.
I attended Prairie Bible College on a bachelors degree and it is ostensibly non-denominational, but is very Calvinist.
I cultivated friendships with people from many denominations as the conversations were more interesting.
I later spent a few more years in a pentecostal church.
My relatives were of the anabaptist variety and some did missionary work in central America translating for Wycliffe.
I have had the born-again experience, baptized by the Holy Ghost and have spoken in tongues (glossolalia).
I studied Kabbalah later for many years, became a talmid of a Rabbi for a year and now I would classify myself as Bnai Noach.
So I was exposed to more than just some out-there sect of obscure christianity.
I am only telling this to give you info and not to boast about anything

The psychological damage comes from the ideology which says you are all sinners and are born in sin and are destined for hell unless you accept Jesus as lord and are born again, and you only have this one single chance to do so.
These are lies.
They cause damage to a person's understanding of reality.

And all christians excepting a few factions/sects believe that they are the new chosen of God as the Jews rejected Jesus.
It is in the doctrines and teachings of virtually every sect/denomination.

[sendy47]

Originally Posted by shaw-n

Well, I was raised in a protestant environment which was varied over the years from Baptist then Presbyterian and then Pentecostal.
I was later baptized in a Baptist church that I spent time in as an assistant youth pastor.
I attended Prairie Bible College on a bachelors degree and it is ostensibly non-denominational, but is very Calvinist.
I cultivated friendships with people from many denominations as the conversations were more interesting.
I later spent a few more years in a pentecostal church.
My relatives were of the anabaptist variety and some did missionary work in central America translating for Wycliffe.
I have had the born-again experience, baptized by the Holy Ghost and have spoken in tongues (glossolalia).
I studied Kabbalah later for many years, became a talmid of a Rabbi for a year and now I would classify myself as Bnai Noach.
So I was exposed to more than just some out-there sect of obscure christianity.
I am only telling this to give you info and not to boast about anything

The psychological damage comes from the ideology which says you are all sinners and are born in sin and are destined for hell unless you accept Jesus as lord and are born again, and you only have this one single chance to do so.
These are lies.
They cause damage to a person's understanding of reality.

And all christians excepting a few factions/sects believe that they are the new chosen of God as the Jews rejected Jesus.
It is in the doctrines and teachings of virtually every sect/denomination.

this is another one of those posts..i would like to put up around town as a bill board..but sad to say those pushers of they have the only way i believe would not sway or even try to be at least open minded...but the greatness of the bill board would be if it would at least save some lives from suicide...because of the hopless preaching and no way out ...

[Nick_A]

Shaw-n

I see you were very emotionally involved with these paths leading to a lot of psychological pain. I question the value of this emotional involvement which is why I value the Christian concept of apatheia which is freedom from emotion. A lot of Christendom believes heightened emotional energy is the experience of spiritual energy which I think is a very bad mistake.

The psychological damage comes from the ideology which says you are all sinners and are born in sin and are destined for hell unless you accept Jesus as lord and are born again, and you only have this one single chance to do so.
These are lies.
They cause damage to a person's understanding of reality.

I contend that the harm is in the presentation rather then the truth of it. These facets of Christendom focus on guilt and the impression that there is something bad about it. These paths speak to your personality rather than Christianity which can touch the seed of the soul.

Buddhism says the same thing. it contends that without awakening we are doomed to continue on the wheel of samsara. It just doesn't make violent speeches about it and allows the person to witness the human condition in themselves.

We need help to awaken but this sleep doesn't make us bad. If someone has a physical affliction, do we condemn them for being bad.

Secular Christendom often tries to control people through fear and guilt which has nothing to do with the purpose of Christianity which is awakening so as to experience the good which is the aim of the truth of the law.

And all christians excepting a few factions/sects believe that they are the new chosen of God as the Jews rejected Jesus.
It is in the doctrines and teachings of virtually every sect/denomination.

I think I am experientially aware of why Jesus spoke in parables, what is meant by needing new eyes to see and ears to hear. I've got a pretty good idea of what is meant by the psychological sleep these traditions refer to.

I know how much some people reject these idea and are insulted by them. This doesn't make me special. I've just been fortunate through heredity to be connected to some pretty exceptional people before the Armenian Genocide and the Russian revolution killed off my heritage and forced my grandfather to escape to America and from Christian persecution.

Gravitating to the depth of Christianity rather than being a part of the secularism surrounding me was natural for me because of the depth I had been exposed to. When I discovered my path it was a welcome rather than insulting experience even though I became aware of the chaotic human condition within me in relation to human conscious potential.

Does it make me elitist to insist on the value of what the World rejects? Simone was willing to "Annoy the Great Beast" as part of the necessary quest for "meaning" and the "good" that is the center of it. Does this make me elitist to know that the World rejects the reality of the fallen human condition? Who am I to doubt the World?. I guess so from the point of view of the World. This doesn't make me feel superior but actually I am grateful to have learned of my ignorance since real understanding is impossible without this beginning.

[evangelicalhumanist]

Is there any truly unalloyed GOOD? Is it really possible that any religion could provide some good that works for absolutely everybody, with no downside for anyone?

I truly doubt it. To begin with, Christianity offers up Hell (certainly not a good) for anyone unable, for whatever reason, to adopt it. Those reasons might include things that are completely beyond one's control, like being born and raised in another faith community and never introduced to Christianity at all. In that sense, Christianity's "good" is mixed with an eternity of agony for billions. I put that into the equation and arrive at -- not good.

What about those who are "different" from the expectation? What about homosexuals, for example. Is it an unalloyed good to insist that they abandon, change, ignore a fundamental and unchangeable part of their very selves in order to be acceptable? This cannot be an unalloyed good, now can it?

As long as people are individuals, with their own motivations, their own personalities, hopes, dreams and tastes, it is absolutely impossible for there to exist any "good" that is good for all. And that, if Needleman had been read correctly, was a very large part of his meaning.

You, Nick A., on the other hand, are taking that very individuality and equating it with "the fallen quality of the heart." You have explicitly said, in making that remark, that the great wrong that we all share is our own individuality.

But to give that up, would that be a "good?"

It would not for me. Maybe that was the genius of Mark Twain. He understood humanity in a very human way.

[vivamis123]

Unless "good" is your awareness....it won't be your experience. God however is beyond good and bad....but perfect.

[evangelicalhumanist]

Originally Posted by vivamis123

Unless "good" is your awareness....it won't be your experience. God however is beyond good and bad....but perfect.

I'm sure that's very nice. I just don't know what it means.