I saw this exchnge today. What do you think?

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If I cannot know something (which is different from saying I do not know something) then does it matter if it exists or not, since I can, by definition, have no knowledge of it? If something exists but cannot be known is it, fundamentally, different from something that does not exist?

I can theorize about what I do not know until I am blue in the face, but I can never know if the theory fits the facts, since I cannot know the facts.

Of course, I can believe that something exists that cannot be known to exist...but what does that get me?

On a similar note, can I imagine something that, by definition, cannot exist. One again, this is different from imagining something that does not exist (for example, a purple crocodile). Something that cannot exist is denied by its very definition. IN other words, I cannot imagine it, because I cannot imagine it, not merely because I have never seen it, and that is a very different thing, altogether.

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Grassaf, Eolas

All that we know to exist is what exists. Something else may exist that we do not know, but if there is no way of knowing, then that mysterious something is pure speculation or wishful imagination. It may really exist but we can't say that it does without evidence.


I agree. I would add that there is a concept between the extremes of pure speculation and facts. That is evidence. Evidence may or may not always lead to facts but it is the only reason we can know to support theories, which are furthermore the best explanation based on evidence. That is as close to fact as we can get


I have never seen an atom. I have never seen an atom. I have never seen atomic nuclei fragment giving off energy but I have seen the results of what atomic fission can do. We cannot see atoms fuse but we know the mighty destructive power produced by hydrogen fusing to helium. We can look at the process happening by glancing at our Sun. (Don't glance directly for too long.)

Amergin

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Militant Agnostic: I don't know, and neither do you. There is no evidence of God so belief is optional.

Which does not either refute nor expand what I said.


You can imagine an atom -- lots of people do (even though most of them imagine it according to a flawed and discarded model). If you cannot imagine something, then you cannot imagine what it would do, thus you cannot imagine what predictions you can make about it based on any evidence.

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Grassaf, Eolas

What is "nowhere?" That suggests not in any part of known space or time. Nothing is a vague word. 98% of the volume of an atom is empty space as far as mass is concerned. But is 98% of the Atom, nothing? Of course not. That volume contains energy in the form of electons which do not act as particles but energy fields. Nobody thinks that the "empty space" is nothingness. It is at least energy, or possibly the Higgs Field. Something exists everywhere because everywhere is the universe. And we know that something's actually define the limits of the universe. You could say that the Universe is everywhere or omnipresent in 3 spatial dimensions and a time vector.


Rubbish. It is arrogant to assume that something is outside of existence. That means that the something does not exist. Existence is fancy word for ISIt is irrational to deny the possibility of something beyond known existence. But that means that if it does, it exists. It iis existence. And we are back where we started, Existence is all that Exists because Existence is the term for all things that exist. Existence = IS.


I think existence is the equivalent of natural. Everything that IS, is NATURAL. If an all powerful Conscious and Cognitive God does exist, then God is by definition NATURAL. God would be natural. God would have a nature. That is why I think the term Supernatural is rubbish. Supernatural means that something is postulated to be outside of, beyond, or different from natural (eg existence.) If God is supernatural, unnatural, not natural we can substitute the word base natural with existent. God would be superexistent, unexistent, or not existent. Supernatural is a meaningless term.

BTW, I don't deny that God exists. I admit God might exist despite total lack of evidence. But then if God is real, he exists and he is natural on his own level.

Does any of this make sense, LK? Or am I babbling?

Amergin

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Militant Agnostic: I don't know, and neither do you. There is no evidence of God so belief is optional.

What do we know of none existence.......and who cares?

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May your awareness be perfection

That's kinda silly...existence refers to everything...

I don't think it's arrogant to assume existence is all that there is. I think it is logical to assume existence is all that exists because if there is something other than existence that exists then it is included in existence by it's own existence.

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"I fully comprehended the power of the human mind at the exact moment I came to the realization that I'm totally insane and have no idea what I'm talking about."

I know nonexistence doesn't exist.

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"I fully comprehended the power of the human mind at the exact moment I came to the realization that I'm totally insane and have no idea what I'm talking about."

Nowhere is the complete lack of space. Since space exists nowhere doesn't.

How is nothing a vague word? It's meaning is perfectly clear to me and I'm an idiot.

I don't see why the empty space has to be at least energy, or possibly the Higgs Field. That makes it sound like all space must be full. I don't see any logical reason why it must be full. I do see a logical reason why everything has to be at least full of empty space though. So, I think the 98% has to be at least empty space because if you took away the space you would be left with nothing and nothing doesn't exist.

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"I fully comprehended the power of the human mind at the exact moment I came to the realization that I'm totally insane and have no idea what I'm talking about."