Did Consciousness Give Rise To Matter?

[Lightkeeper]

Was it the other way around? What do you think?

[vivamis123]

Consciousness is matter. They arose at the same time.

[metis]

Originally Posted by Lightkeeper

Was it the other way around? What do you think?

I have to think that matter gave rise to consciousness. We see in evolution several billions of years of gradual development whereas no brain has ever been found until within the last billion years. No brain = no consciousness. That's unless someone wants to re-define "consciousness".

Shalom,
Vern

[vivamis123]

Consciousness to me is the ability to observe the observed. I did not know that no brain was found until within the last billion years. Would a brain have survived longer than than? I mean has any organ been found that is older than that?

[metis]

Originally Posted by vivamis123

Consciousness to me is the ability to observe the observed. I did not know that no brain was found until within the last billion years. Would a brain have survived longer than than? I mean has any organ been found that is older than that?

Oh, wait a minute-- I forgot about your age!

Actually no, there have been no multi-cellular organisms found before the 1 billion year mark.

Shalom,
Vern

[vivamis123]

I want to laught with you, but I don't get it Metis. Sofar you are laughing alone. You do realize that don't you? LOL

Is there proof that multi-cellular organisms did not exist back then or was that assumed since none was found?

[metis]

Originally Posted by vivamis123

Is there proof that multi-cellular organisms did not exist back then or was that assumed since none was found?

Neither. We work on the basis of evidence, therefore "proof" and "assume" are not supposed to be used. "Proof" implies some sort of absoluteness, which we never assume, and "assume" means we're jumping to conclusions, which we certainly don't want to do. So let me rephrase your question and then answer it:

Is there "evidence" of multi-cellular life-forms before 1 billion years ago? The answer is "no".

Shalom,
Vern

[Nick_A]

Matter by itself cannot give rise to consciousess since there is no reason to do so

From the point of view of dead matter, what purpose does consciousness serve? What is the incentive for it?

However, from the point of view of evolution being part of a cyclical process that begins with involution or the highest consciousness, the appearance of matter creating consciousness is only the natural movement of the fragments of consciousness within matter of different densities uniting as they approach the source.

[metis]

Dealing with consciousness, as scientists we're really not exactly certain what it is and what causes it even though we know it exists. It's sort of like saying that we think there's an outer edge to the universe even though we cannot detect it.

Part of the problem becomes how do we define consciousness. When asked the question, I used a definition that is often used in scientific circles, sometimes also referred to as that which is found in sentient beings-- iow, an awareness of it's own existence that goes beyond mere reactions to stimuli. However, someone else may well use a different definition.

If we could isolate consciousness, which may be done someday, then we can start to possibly find out how the process works and maybe even how it evolved. At this point, however, we cannot and, therefore, we should not draw conclusions on probably most aspects of consciousness-- especially its causation.

Without a brain, organism may be able to react to environmental stimuli, but they show no indication that they understand their relationship with the environment and the stimuli that occurs within the cerebrum in higher vertebrate mammals. If we had no cerebrum, we would have no consciousness as defined above by all indications.

Therefore, since we have no evidence of any organism having a brain before 1 b., we cannot assume that there's a consciousness that existed. If evidence later was found that indicated something different, then we'd certainly have to reconsider.

What some attempt to do is to establish some sort of hypothetical consciousness that they believe must exist in order to indicate some sort of creator-god. However, nothing along that line has any scientific evidence to support it-- at least at this time.

Shalom,
Vern

[Harvey1]

Originally Posted by metis

What some attempt to do is to establish some sort of hypothetical consciousness that they believe must exist in order to indicate some sort of creator-god. However, nothing along that line has any scientific evidence to support it-- at least at this time.

Hi Vern,

Although we don't know what the neural correlates of consciousness are, I think that quantum mechanics (e.g., Complementarity principle) gives us justification to believe that consciousness can exist without a brain.