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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 13th August 2008, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt
Good point, but it won't be till after our resurrection from death that we will finally be free from "crying, sorrow, pain, and death" which is what Jesus promises us. That is what Christian universalists look forward to and we believe that sooner or later it will apply to everyone.
Why is resurrection necessary? Why must those who have gone before return? There is no basis for believing that the at any point in time the human race is incomplete. If it was complete before they arrived then it will continue to be complete while they are gone.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 13th August 2008, 11:13 PM
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Why is resurrection necessary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by statrei
Why is resurrection necessary? Why must those who have gone before return? There is no basis for believing that the at any point in time the human race is incomplete. If it was complete before they arrived then it will continue to be complete while they are gone.

Resurrection is necessary because everyone's body dies.
The apostle Paul put it this way in 1Cor. 15:52-54

"The dead shall be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed. For this corruptable must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Then shall be brought to pass, death is swallowed up in victory."
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 13th August 2008, 11:21 PM
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Rainbow

--->Why is resurrection necessary? Why must those who have gone before return? There is no basis for believing that the at any point in time the human race is incomplete. If it was complete before they arrived then it will continue to be complete while they are gone.<---
==========================

That reminds me of how we can alter or add or extend what we read of the written Holy Words .
Perhaps 'infinity' is an illusion , there to throw us off from the truth . In that sense of concept we can see in resurrection the concepts of 'infinity' applied in an unusual comprehention .

In a variety from 'relativety' we see that living and then dieing is being in a state of infinity yet with finite included , placing it in an unusual concept but also adding another answer to the 'why' in the beginning of your post above , when seen in the whole picture .
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 14th August 2008, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt
Resurrection is necessary because everyone's body dies.
The apostle Paul put it this way in 1Cor. 15:52-54

"The dead shall be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed. For this corruptable must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Then shall be brought to pass, death is swallowed up in victory."
You have made a case for resurrection but you have not shown that it is necessary.
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Old 14th August 2008, 08:46 PM
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necessary?

For me the crying and pain and sorrow I experience during my mortal life here on this earth convinces me that a new transformed body is what I need.

One like Jesus had after He rose from the dead would do.

On the one hand Jesus walked right through a locked door.

Then when He got inside He told Thomas to touch the print of the nails in His hands and the print of the wound in His side to prove that He was Jesus raised from the dead.

I think that would be a pretty cool body to have. :-)
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Old 14th August 2008, 09:40 PM
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Hi Rodger

Jesus did not suffer
His demonstration was that Gods Son cannot be touched by this world
The demonstration was that there is no death and no sacrifice

God created his Son perfect forever

After Revelation I was given a book called ACIM and within its pages isd written what I expereinced

This is written about the crucifixion

For learning purposes, let us consider the crucifixion again. I did not dwell on it before because of the fearful connotations you may associate with it. The only emphasis laid upon it so far has been that it was not a form of punishment. Nothing, however, can be explained in negative terms only. There is a positive interpretation of the crucifixion that is wholly devoid of fear, and therefore wholly benign in what it teaches, if it is properly understood.

The crucifixion is nothing more than an extreme example. Its value, like the value of any teaching device, lies solely in the kind of learning it facilitates. It can be, and has been, misunderstood. This is only because the fearful are apt to perceive fearfully. I have already told you that you can always call on me to share my decision, and thus make it stronger. I have also told you that the crucifixion was the last useless journey the Sonship need take, and that it represents release from fear to anyone who understands it. While I emphasised only the resurrection before, the purpose of the crucifixion and how it actually led to the resurrection was not clarified then. Nevertheless, it has a definite contribution to make to your own life, and if you will consider it without fear, it will help you understand your own role as a teacher.

You have probably reacted for years as if you were being crucified. This is a marked tendency of the separated, who always refuse to consider what they have done to themselves. Projection means anger, anger fosters assault, and assault promotes fear. The real meaning of the crucifixion lies in the apparent intensity of the assault of some of the Sons of God upon another. This, of course, is impossible, and must be fully understood as impossible. Otherwise, I cannot serve as a model for learning.

Assault can ultimately be made only on the body. There is little doubt that one body can assault another, and can even destroy it. Yet if destruction itself is impossible, anything that is destructible cannot be real. Its destruction, therefore, does not justify anger. To the extent to which you believe that it does, you are accepting false premises and teaching them to others. The message the crucifixion was intended to teach was that it is not necessary to perceive any form of assault in persecution, because you cannot be persecuted. If you respond with anger, you must be equating yourself with the destructible, and are therefore regarding yourself insanely.

I have made it perfectly clear that I am like you. and you are like me, but our fundamental equality can be demonstrated only through joint decision. You are free to perceive yourself as persecuted if you choose. When you do choose to react that way, however, you might remember that I was persecuted as the world judges, and did not share this evaluation for myself. And because I did not share it, I did not strengthen it. I therefore offered a different interpretation of attack, and one which I want to share with you. If you will believe it, you will help me teach it.

......................................
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 14th August 2008, 10:40 PM
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"Jesus did not suffer?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonyamendola
Hi Rodger

Jesus did not suffer
His demonstration was that Gods Son cannot be touched by this world
The demonstration was that there is no death and no sacrifice

God created his Son perfect forever

After Revelation I was given a book called ACIM and within its pages isd written what I expereinced

This is written about the crucifixion

For learning purposes, let us consider the crucifixion again. I did not dwell on it before because of the fearful connotations you may associate with it. The only emphasis laid upon it so far has been that it was not a form of punishment. Nothing, however, can be explained in negative terms only. There is a positive interpretation of the crucifixion that is wholly devoid of fear, and therefore wholly benign in what it teaches, if it is properly understood.

The crucifixion is nothing more than an extreme example. Its value, like the value of any teaching device, lies solely in the kind of learning it facilitates. It can be, and has been, misunderstood. This is only because the fearful are apt to perceive fearfully. I have already told you that you can always call on me to share my decision, and thus make it stronger. I have also told you that the crucifixion was the last useless journey the Sonship need take, and that it represents release from fear to anyone who understands it. While I emphasised only the resurrection before, the purpose of the crucifixion and how it actually led to the resurrection was not clarified then. Nevertheless, it has a definite contribution to make to your own life, and if you will consider it without fear, it will help you understand your own role as a teacher.

You have probably reacted for years as if you were being crucified. This is a marked tendency of the separated, who always refuse to consider what they have done to themselves. Projection means anger, anger fosters assault, and assault promotes fear. The real meaning of the crucifixion lies in the apparent intensity of the assault of some of the Sons of God upon another. This, of course, is impossible, and must be fully understood as impossible. Otherwise, I cannot serve as a model for learning.

Assault can ultimately be made only on the body. There is little doubt that one body can assault another, and can even destroy it. Yet if destruction itself is impossible, anything that is destructible cannot be real. Its destruction, therefore, does not justify anger. To the extent to which you believe that it does, you are accepting false premises and teaching them to others. The message the crucifixion was intended to teach was that it is not necessary to perceive any form of assault in persecution, because you cannot be persecuted. If you respond with anger, you must be equating yourself with the destructible, and are therefore regarding yourself insanely.

I have made it perfectly clear that I am like you. and you are like me, but our fundamental equality can be demonstrated only through joint decision. You are free to perceive yourself as persecuted if you choose. When you do choose to react that way, however, you might remember that I was persecuted as the world judges, and did not share this evaluation for myself. And because I did not share it, I did not strengthen it. I therefore offered a different interpretation of attack, and one which I want to share with you. If you will believe it, you will help me teach it.
......................................

"And Jesus began to teach them that He must suffer many things and be killed and after three days rise again." Mark 8:31
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 15th August 2008, 12:08 AM
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Sorry Rodger but I dont do most of the Bible

From what I read it says Son of Man and not Jesus who is killed

Indeed if you believe that you are the Son of Man you will appear to die because you believe in being a body - of course death does not exist so you only "taste" death



Yet As a Son of God you do not do death as God is Life and we are not bodies but spirit, we remain as we are created
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Old 15th August 2008, 12:41 AM
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"doing the Bible"

"Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. He was buried and He rose again the third day according to the scriptures. But now is Christ risen from the dead and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order. 1Cor. 15:3,4,20,22,23
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 15th August 2008, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt
Lighthouse Keeper you asked, "My only question here is why does transformation have to be after death? Buddha and others have reported this transformation in life."

The Christian perspective relies on the words of Jesus Who said, "I go tp prepare a place for you that where I am you will be always." And in another place it describes that place as having no more pain, or sorrow, or death. Old things will have passed away. Behold I make all things new, Jesus said.

Christian universalists believe that everyone will sooner or later go to that place.
In Christian Mysticism this is something that happens to us inwardly in life. It would be finding the Christ consciousness within us. This is the same thing Buddha said. In the emptiness we find no more pain and suffering. The death on the cross would symbolize letting go of form so the Christ Consciusness can be perceived.
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