Rodger:

Thanks for the post and welcome to the Forum! You have a lot of material and I think it's just great. I was thinking though that maybe you could select a few salient points of Universalism that you'd like to share?

- Art

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"it benefits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God."
- Johannes Kepler

Welcome Rodger. It was a very interesting and well thought out post. I confess that I know little about Universalism other than it is considered to be a very positive religion. Is it humanistic?

Post-Constantine Christianity has been a very negative and evil religion as evidenced by 1700 years of recorded European History. Islam is also a negative and evil religion that trivialises the value of human life.

It should be obvious to all who have read the New Testament that Modern Christianity (Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox) has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus apart from using the name of Jesus for a new Pagan god. Judaism is also negative as is revealed in the Old Testament Killer God JHWY.

I agree. The Gods of Paganised Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are impossible for a human being to love if that human has full use of his mental faculties. FEAR of that god is the only logical feeling one can have to such a cosmic monstrosity.

People may say that they love God but they do not. They may say it out of fear that the nasty God will make them suffer. Many Protestant Fundamentalists even praise those who fear God. "God Fearing" is a complimentary term of praise for an individual believer. Joe is a God Fearing man. That should be insulting but it is a compliment in America.

If I believed in the Western God, the Trinity, I too would fear that God. If I believed in the insane Book of Revelations, I would be terrified of such a violent killer God. Just reading Revelations makes me poop in my trousers. To love such a God is equivalent to loving Hitler, Stalin, Cromwell, Mao, and Pol Pot.

I prefer belief in the Great Pumpkin prophesied by the prophet Charlie Brown.

Amergin

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Militant Agnostic: I don't know, and neither do you. There is no evidence of God so belief is optional.

I'm a universal transformationist. I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.

That includes both the unexplained and unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering.

I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.

I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do.

I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection. That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.

Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe.

“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly breaks our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”

Type into Google

GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN BE SAVED

Let's hear it for The Great Pumpkin! Good one Amergin!

I would say that Christian universalism is MORE THAN JUST "humanistic" because it involves our belief that God loves ALL of His creation and after any necessary "kolisis eonian" which means age-during corrective chastisement, He intends that everyone of His creatures, human or not human, will eventually have a future in front of them that is only good.

For example, take Satan who is the "baddest" being of all. Here is what we think about him.

SATAN’S SALVATION ETCETERA - Grace super-exceeding!!!

THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm

Since all of creation is in the Son of God’s love, through Whom God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, there is no more reason to suppose that Satan (Hitler, Stalin, Cromwell, Mao, and Pol Pot) are not included therein than that any other creature is not included therein.
Therefore, it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed “the Adversary,” is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title (“Adversary” or “Satan”) necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace.

A time is coming when Satan himself, the instigator of human opposition and dissension will be beneath our feet. Rom. 16:20.
Now he dominates the actions of many a saint. But later his place and power will be taken from him and we will be above him, able to subdue and control the one who, next to our flesh, was the cause of most of our miseries.
Just as the enemies of Christ will figuratively find themselves a footstool for His feet, so will the greatest of all our enemies be placed beneath our power.
But best of all, we will not retaliate. We will not use our authority to further alienate and estrange Satan from God or from ourselves. We, to whom conciliation was first presented, will be conciliatory to all, and be able to bring back all our enemies into the circle of friendship and conciliation with God.

Doubtless due to Satan’s machinations, we cannot now even bring about peace among ourselves. But then all our own differences will have been dissolved, and we will be able to bring it to our erstwhile enemy in the spirit world, the Adversary himself.

Satan is an enemy of God, and must be included among the enemies reconciled to God by the blood of Christ's cross, one of those "in heaven." Since death is the last enemy, then Satan must be reconciled to God prior to the destruction of death, and the subsequent emptying of death, and the presentation of the whole reconciled universe to God, when God becomes All in all.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/sa...on-heavens.htm

C.S. Lewis wrote, “The greatest surprise for Satan will occur when he learns that he has been perfectly doing the will of God all along.”

Personally I think the greatest demonstration of God’s grace in action among the celestials will be when Satan bows in humble submission and love in front of His Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

I think that everyone who needs it will experience just the right amount of what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means "age-during corrective chastisement."

Thank you for the great posts.

My only question here is why does transformation have to be after death? Buddha and others have reported this transformation in life.

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Lighthouse Keeper you asked, "My only question here is why does transformation have to be after death? Buddha and others have reported this transformation in life."

The Christian perspective relies on the words of Jesus Who said, "I go tp prepare a place for you that where I am you will be always." And in another place it describes that place as having no more pain, or sorrow, or death. Old things will have passed away. Behold I make all things new, Jesus said.

Christian universalists believe that everyone will sooner or later go to that place.

if there is no time frame listed...then the original statement would seem to hold true...why would we wait till after death....we would be with him always..so should we choose...we can have peace on earth...i think more and more are finding this out....

Good point, but it won't be till after our resurrection from death that we will finally be free from "crying, sorrow, pain, and death" which is what Jesus promises us. That is what Christian universalists look forward to and we believe that sooner or later it will apply to everyone.

The Resurection from Death is not as it may all appear


We are in Death NOW because we do not expereince God NOW

That is the death Jesus speaks about

Resurection is to remember SELF through the simple instructions Jesus gave us
Love all as Self
Forgive


When you remember SELF there is no more death pain or sorrow because when you expereince Self and God you know this "world" is not reality.
You KNOW with nil doubt because you remember what you are

Jesus had revelation and then walked in the wilderness for 40 days means he expereinced God and then walked back in the dream for a period of time - thats what trends to happen as the "revelation" is so mind blowing that all of this we think we live in is actually nothing more than a dream


From there on Death is no longer meaningfull
You may say we lay the body down much like you give up an old mobile phone
Nothing more

Its quite simple really

If God is Love and Everything, then this World we expereince cannot be can it?

Therefore using faith in God being ONLY Love, we forgive everything for it is not Reality

Or simpler

Put Love before all else - which is to Love God with all of your heart because God is LOVE

Indeed if you find the value of Love without condition you dont have to believe in God at all

You have found Him

Tony, are YOU yourself free from crying, pain, and sorrow before you "lay your body down?"

Jesus promised that we all will be after our resurrection from the dead. That's what I'm counting on. But in the meantime I still sometimes cry, I still sometimes hurt, and I'm still sometimes sorrowfull.
And I suspect that you experience the same too, right?

I think that Jesus' suffering on the cross was very real, and I don't think He thought he was just "dreaming."