Filling The Gap

[Lightkeeper]

If we remove religion from society, what would fill the gap.

[Schizophretard]

A society of atheism will fill the gap. They will believe that the universe is nothing but a random chance chaotic explosion that has no purpose and in a type of predestination where all their actions are predetermined by natural processes. For some strange reason they will live contrary to these beliefs. They will try to live orderly lives even though they believe their lives are chaos. They will seek purpose in their lives even though they believe there is none to be found. They will hold people responsible for their actions even though they believe they have no freewill. Nothing about people's behavior will really change except that now many people try to live in harmony with their world view but in an atheist society people will try to live at war with their world view.

[sendy47]

the above is interesting...because if i am reading it correct...i think just the opposite...i dont feel it is the atheisim or God belief but the general behavior of humans that wishes to be more peaceful and it is the idea of something we are not and need to be...or something we need to gain to be etc...that causes the masses to fued.....but the we feud when only two gather...but the thing is...that is still not the start....we feud with ourselves that is it seems were it starts...our perception of what we think is being expressed and and what is continues to cause conflict...but i really really think it is improving greatly.....

[Schizophretard]

I'm not talking about people fighting each other but fighting against how they view reality. If someone doesn't believe life has a purpose then they should behave like it doesn't have a purpose. If someone believes that the universe is a random chance chaotic explosion then they should behave chaotically. If someone doesn't believe in freewill then they shouldn't hold people responsible for their actions. My point is atheists have an opposite world view than a religious person's but they don't advocate living an opposite life. For an example, A religious person believes it is wrong to kill because life is a valuable precious gift that was given with a purpose. Atheist don't believe this. They believe life is just pointless matter but treat it like it is more than matter. It's like they don't believe in God but want people to live as if there were one.

[metis]

Originally Posted by Lightkeeper

If we remove religion from society, what would fill the gap.

When we are children and we have really not developed our own sense of religious beliefs, were we without a meaning to our lives? Are Buddhists, who are not believers in a creator-god, living a meaningless life? Are secular humanists living a meaningless life? Am I, being non-theistic, living a meaningless life?

Not me and probably not most others in the above categories.

[sendy47]

Originally Posted by Schizophretard

I'm not talking about people fighting each other but fighting against how they view reality. If someone doesn't believe life has a purpose then they should behave like it doesn't have a purpose. If someone believes that the universe is a random chance chaotic explosion then they should behave chaotically. If someone doesn't believe in freewill then they shouldn't hold people responsible for their actions. My point is atheists have an opposite world view than a religious person's but they don't advocate living an opposite life. For an example, A religious person believes it is wrong to kill because life is a valuable precious gift that was given with a purpose. Atheist don't believe this. They believe life is just pointless matter but treat it like it is more than matter. It's like they don't believe in God but want people to live as if there were one.

That is what i am saying as well..or so i thought...think.......i dont think i follow you as to life having a purpose...this is again as i was saying a perspective...you feel they dont behave a certain way...all the while...they think they do ..i am sure most think there behaving as there thought process dictates...and others know there not or putting on a false front for personal reasons as well ...why would we need to behave chaotically just because there is not a definite answer to questions...why would one not still behave in a way to have a peaceful life....and why do you lump all atheists in the same category...i think all of us are individual with many combinations of thought and learned behavior and personal behavior of who knows where it came from...are you talking or reading or just thinking that Atheists all should behave this certain way...where is your posting stemming from...

[arthra]

I know of at least two historical examples where religion was removed forcibly one was during the French Revolution where the "Goddess of Reason" was enthroned and the other the Russian Revolution where the state tried to oppress religion.

What followed in the French Revolution was the Reign of Terror..and what followed in the Russian Revolution was the installation of State Socialism and the Communist Party which forbade it's members to be religious...

The thing is when this has happened there's a sort of "religion" that nonetheless takes the place of religion and so you have millions of people waving Mao's book or maybe bigger than life May Day parades down Red Square a kind of "religious orthodoxy" that oppresses the human spirit and freedom.

Not all Communist societies though oppress religion and in Vietnam and Cuba there are some examples where people have been allowed some religious freedoms..

- Art

[Asimov]

Originally Posted by Schizophretard

A society of atheism will fill the gap. They will believe that the universe is nothing but a random chance chaotic explosion that has no purpose and in a type of predestination where all their actions are predetermined by natural processes. For some strange reason they will live contrary to these beliefs. They will try to live orderly lives even though they believe their lives are chaos. They will seek purpose in their lives even though they believe there is none to be found. They will hold people responsible for their actions even though they believe they have no freewill. Nothing about people's behavior will really change except that now many people try to live in harmony with their world view but in an atheist society people will try to live at war with their world view.

Dude, it isn't possible for you to have inserted any more stereotypical garbage in that single paragraph.

[Amergin]

Originally Posted by Schizophretard

I'm not talking about people fighting each other but fighting against how they view reality. If someone doesn't believe life has a purpose then they should behave like it doesn't have a purpose. If someone believes that the universe is a random chance chaotic explosion then they should behave chaotically.

You are quite wrong on this. The most secularised nations (nations with religious freedom and high percentages of non-belief) have the lowest homicide and violent crime rates in the world. Consider, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Scotland, or Iceland it would suggest that percentage of unbelief is associated with greater order and non-violence of society. The USA is the most religious western advanced nation and has a far higher homicide rate than other First World Nations. Canada with 25% unbelief has a much lower rate of violent crime than its hyperreligious neighbour to the south.

Atheists or Non-Theists in the USA are estimated from 5% to as high as 11% (realising that many Atheists are closet Non-Believers to avoid discrimination.) Yet Atheists are approximately 0.02% of imprisoned criminals in the 3 million inmate US prison population. Again it would seem that Atheism which is strongly associated with rational thinking also promotes a more responsible society.

Originally Posted by Schizophretard

If someone doesn't believe in freewill then they shouldn't hold people responsible for their actions. My point is atheists have an opposite world view than a religious person's but they don't advocate living an opposite life.

That makes no sense. Freewill is not an exclusive idea of Theists. Atheists and even Neuroscientists are on both sides of the free will debate. In fact it was Christian Calvinists who preached predestination which is incompatible with free will. I am a Neurologist and Research Neuroscientist and I do not have a firm idea about free will. Common sense suggests that we do have choices. We make choices all of the time. We often ponder actions considering the possible outcomes. It certainly seems like choice. Other claim that the choice is a delusion but I really don't know.

Originally Posted by Schizophretard

For an example, a religious person believes it is wrong to kill because life is a valuable precious gift that was given with a purpose. Atheist don't believe this. They believe life is just pointless matter but treat it like it is more than matter.

Bollocks! The reason Atheists have such a low crime rate and extremely low homicide rate is because we use our intuitive morality derived from 7 million years of hominid evolution. We learned by trial and error that murder, theft, adultery, abuse, rape, and lying were disruptive to social hominids. Evolution selected out brain circuitry that carries "Intuitive Morality." I know murder is wrong because my brain is wired to consider murder to be a terrible thing. It robs my fellow human of life. And because I am an Atheist, I cannot take back what I do wrong. I cannot restore the life of someone I kill. I can return stolen goods but for violent acts, I must live with the guilt for the rest of my life. It is the knowledge that something is wrong reinforced by the anticipated terrible guilt that we will carry if we do it.

The Christian by contrast does not believe in intuitive morality. He believes murder is wrong only because of a commandment from a Jewish Fire God, JHWY, and he will send you to HELL. So if the Christian has an impulse to kill someone, he is held back only by believe in some arcane book with a commandment in it. He doesn't believe in intuitive morality separate from believing in gods. Christian morality is further weakened because it is not only morality based on arbitrary divine commands, but sin can be erased. Catholics can confess sins and remove all responsibility for the crimes. Fundamentalists believe that even though Hitler killed 12 million (Jews, Gypsies, Atheists, Homosexuals, Slavs, Socialists, and political opponents); he would be in Heaven if he accepted Jesus in the second after he bit the cyanide capsule.

It makes more sense that someone who believes that actions are right or wrong on intuitive human knowledge will be less likely to commit hideous crimes than someone who does not believe in objective morality. The Christian believes that X is wrong only because it violates an arbitrary commandment. That can't be as firm as independent brain based abhorrence of evil acts. The Christian is more likely to commit a crime if he believes the sin can be easily erased and get off Scot Free by confession or being "Born Again" in which sins do not count. Belief in Jesus is a license to sin with no guilt attached.

Originally Posted by Schizophretard

It's like they don't believe in God but want people to live as if there were one.

Wrong again matey, you need to start thinking for yourself instead of repeating urban legends. I don't want people to live as if there were a God. In my opinion that would me higher homicide rates, increased theft, lying, and abuse. I want people who believe in God to behave as if there were no God, and they would be personally guilty of wrong doing and have to carry that guilt to their graves. The worst crimes committed by Americans in recent years have been committed by very religious people: Tim McVeigh, Erik Rudolph, Jeffrey Dahmer, Buford Furrow, Robert Matthews (the Order), David Koresh, the KKK, and Jim Jones. The Twin Towers suicide attack on 9-11 was committed by 19 religious Saudis. Osama Bin Ladin is a religious fanatic terrorist. Remember that even Hitler claimed to be a Christian and used Biblical verses many times in Mein Kampf. Hitler's anti-Semitism was influenced strongly by the violently anti-Semitic Martin Luther.

Amergin

[Amergin]

Originally Posted by arthra

I know of at least two historical examples where religion was removed forcibly one was during the French Revolution where the "Goddess of Reason" was enthroned and the other the Russian Revolution where the state tried to oppress religion.

What followed in the French Revolution was the Reign of Terror..and what followed in the Russian Revolution was the installation of State Socialism and the Communist Party which forbade it's members to be religious...

The thing is when this has happened there's a sort of "religion" that nonetheless takes the place of religion and so you have millions of people waving Mao's book or maybe bigger than life May Day parades down Red Square a kind of "religious orthodoxy" that oppresses the human spirit and freedom.

Not all Communist societies though oppress religion and in Vietnam and Cuba there are some examples where people have been allowed some religious freedoms..

- Art

I consider Marxism-Leninism (Communism) to be a religion. It has a creed of which only one small part was endorsing Atheism. They were a Godless religion or a Religion with Gods named Marx, Lenin, and Stalin who were displayed in 40 metre tall portrates in Red Square. That looks a lot like erecting statues of Jesus or Crosses. They put Lenin's body in a display case monument where millions of people filed by daily to "worship" the God of Communism.

What causes brutality is when any religion is imposed or persecuted. Established Christianity was almost always accompanied by brutality, torture, intimidation, and executions. Victims of Christian persecution consisted of Pagans refusing to convert, Heretics (with some variation on dogma), Unbelievers, Jews, and Gypsies. Protestants persecuted Catholics (The Cromwell Holocaust resulted in one and a half Irish executions, 700,000 Scottish killings, and several hundred thousand killings of dissident English and Welsh people. Protestants also persecuted and killed Mormons in America, and Native Americans (Heathens). Catholics carried out persecutions of Jews and Moriscos in Spain, Cathars in France, Bogomils in Bosnia-Serbia-Albania, Donatists, Manichaeans, Monophysites, Arians, and Nestorians.

Like many Americans you have been misled by propaganda accelerated during the Cold War do demonise any unbeliever. That still persists today in your country.

Amergin