Forcing your Beliefs

[Rev. Kelly]

I just finished reading "Lillith" by George MacDonald. It is a really good book, and an interesting read. While this is fiction, it has lots of allusion to Biblical references. Toward the end, it states that belief is a choice, and one that we can't make for others. I believe that most, if not all, of us understand that we can't force others to see our viewpoint or accept our beliefs, but there are those out there that would try to force others to accept what we believe.

Why would people do this? Can you really force someone to believe what you do or would it just be superficial at best? Wouldn't most people just follow their own way in secret?

[Amergin]

Originally Posted by Rev. Kelly

I just finished reading "Lillith" by George MacDonald. It is a really good book, and an interesting read. While this is fiction, it has lots of allusion to Biblical references. Toward the end, it states that belief is a choice, and one that we can't make for others. I believe that most, if not all, of us understand that we can't force others to see our viewpoint or accept our beliefs, but there are those out there that would try to force others to accept what we believe.

Why would people do this? Can you really force someone to believe what you do or would it just be superficial at best? Wouldn't most people just follow their own way in secret?

There was a programme on Telly (History Channel?) that discussed Lilith in the Jewish scriptures as preceding the second created woman, Eve. Lilith was outspoken and banned in some way. To some women she has become a hero of a liberated woman much like Hypatia of Alexandria.

You are right. I don't think that one can force a belief upon another person unless that person already has most elements of that belief already. However, in most cases, people who are forced by torture, intimidation, or threats to life to accept a religion replacing their own beliefs, will simply fake it.

Many people Communist countries with official Atheism, called themselves Communists to get a break on good jobs and escape harm. But they maintained their Orthodox Christian beliefs in quiet. Yugoslavia had people living under officially Atheist Yugoslavia made up of mini-countries whose people secretly believed in Roman Catholicism (Slovenia and Croatia), Orthodox Christian (Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia) and Islam (Bosnia and Herzegovina.) They lived in peace because proselytising and religious intimidation was illegal. When Yugoslavia fragmented, hidden religious beliefs and bigotry flared into a decade of wars.

In America, there are a large number of Atheists who must keep quiet about their not believing in Christ. Primary care doctors, dentists, psychologists, chiropractors, small business owners, or anybody running for public office must hide their unbelief. Many I have met at conferences, Physicians, especially those in primary care, would face patient boycotts and loss of years of hard work establishing practice. The only place where one finds Atheist physicians is in academia. I worked for a year at an American University Medical School and Teaching Hospital. The entire Neuroscience Department (8 neurologists and 7 neurosurgeons) were all non-believers. They were protected by law from being fired or loss of tenure for religious dissent.

Like the case of Yugoslavia, I suspect that the number of Non-Theists in America is as much as three times the number recorded in polls. Being outed as an Atheist doctor in Alabama is so seriously harmful, that many will not respond truthfully to polls and many even fake Christianity by visibly attending a church. If America declared real freedom of thought and people accepted that freedom, you might have 20-25% Atheists in the USA. 10% of Soldiers in Vietnam admitted to being Atheists and this was unchanged from WWII. That number will be very low now because the US Military is openly intimidating Atheists on a regular basis. The case of the killing of Pat Tillman by friendly fire is still thought by many to have been a "hate crime."

Amergin

[Ceetee]

Originally Posted by Rev. Kelly

I just finished reading "Lillith" by George MacDonald. It is a really good book, and an interesting read. While this is fiction, it has lots of allusion to Biblical references. Toward the end, it states that belief is a choice, and one that we can't make for others. I believe that most, if not all, of us understand that we can't force others to see our viewpoint or accept our beliefs, but there are those out there that would try to force others to accept what we believe.

Why would people do this? Can you really force someone to believe what you do or would it just be superficial at best? Wouldn't most people just follow their own way in secret?

well, from what I've experienced, when someone tries to force his "beliefs" on you it's less about the beliefs than it is attempting to force you to conform your behavior/lifestyle to his beliefs.

[shaw-n]

I do not see any merit in forcing someone to believe in a certain way.
Our history is filled with examples though of people who thought much differently.
If you force someone by violence or other coercion to believe some doctrine they may do so to preserve themselves, but all that has occurred is that person will become a secret enemy.
The best way to spread a belief is to prove its worth and those with intelligence will think it through and make up their own minds.

[sendy47]

Why would people do this?

For power and control....

Can you really force someone to believe what you do or would it just be superficial at best?

My guess superficial at best...

Wouldn't most people just follow their own way in secret?
__________________

I think yes...

[aged hippy]

Originally Posted by Rev. Kelly

I just finished reading "Lillith" by George MacDonald. It is a really good book, and an interesting read. While this is fiction, it has lots of allusion to Biblical references. Toward the end, it states that belief is a choice, and one that we can't make for others. I believe that most, if not all, of us understand that we can't force others to see our viewpoint or accept our beliefs, but there are those out there that would try to force others to accept what we believe.

Why would people do this? Can you really force someone to believe what you do or would it just be superficial at best? Wouldn't most people just follow their own way in secret?

... and completely off-topic
Thank you for posting that reference to the book, Rev. K, i've downloaded it and am about to venture out of the cottage and into the Forest...

@ Amergin
There is a slightly different tale told of that particular Lilith by the Sumerians:

Lilith (Hebrew לילית) is a mythological female Mesopotamian storm demon associated with wind and was thought to be a bearer of disease, illness, and death. The figure of Lilith first appeared in a class of wind and storm demons or spirits as Lilitu, in Sumer, circa 4000 BC. Many scholars place the origin of the phonetic name "Lilith" at somewhere around 700 BC despite post-dating even the time of Moses.[1] Lilith appears as a night demon in Jewish lore and as a screech owl in the King James version of the Bible.

Etymology

Hebrew לילית Lilit, Akkadian Līlītu are female nisba adjectives from the Proto-Semitic root LYL "night", literally translating to nocturnal "female night being/demon", although cuneiform inscriptions where Līlīt and Līlītu refers to disease-bearing wind spirits exist.[2][3]

Another possibility is association not with "night" but with "wind", i.e. identification of Akkadian Lil-itu as a loan from Sumerian lil "air",[2] specifically from Sumerian NIN.LIL "lady air", goddess of the South wind and wife of Enlil.

The Akkadian masculine līlû shows no nisba suffix and has been compared to Sumerian (kiskil-) lilla.[citation needed]
Lilith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I found it very interesting.

Edited to add:

I apologise for any confusion caused by mine....
the book i downloaded was "Phantastes", not Lilith.


but i've got it right this time.

[Rev. Kelly]

Originally Posted by aged hippy

... and completely off-topic
Thank you for posting that reference to the book, Rev. K, i've downloaded it and am about to venture out of the cottage and into the Forest...

@ Amergin
There is a slightly different tale told of that particular Lilith by the Sumerians:


I found it very interesting.

Edited to add:

I apologise for any confusion caused by mine....
the book i downloaded was "Phantastes", not Lilith.


but i've got it right this time.

Enjoy the story, it is quite the adventure.

[Rev. Kelly]

Well, here we are and we are basically all of like mind. You can't force anyone to believe what you believe...so why do people try to do this all the time?

[Astreja]

In my opinion, forcing someone to adopt my beliefs would dishonour my beliefs and possibly result in psychological harm to the target of my proselytizing. I see no good coming of it.

I am curious as to how beliefs form, however. I suspect it's a highly complex interaction of environment and personal experience.

[Schizophretard]

Originally Posted by Amergin

There was a programme on Telly (History Channel?) that discussed Lilith in the Jewish scriptures as preceding the second created woman, Eve. Lilith was outspoken and banned in some way. To some women she has become a hero of a liberated woman much like Hypatia of Alexandria.

You are right. I don't think that one can force a belief upon another person unless that person already has most elements of that belief already. However, in most cases, people who are forced by torture, intimidation, or threats to life to accept a religion replacing their own beliefs, will simply fake it.

Many people Communist countries with official Atheism, called themselves Communists to get a break on good jobs and escape harm. But they maintained their Orthodox Christian beliefs in quiet. Yugoslavia had people living under officially Atheist Yugoslavia made up of mini-countries whose people secretly believed in Roman Catholicism (Slovenia and Croatia), Orthodox Christian (Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia) and Islam (Bosnia and Herzegovina.) They lived in peace because proselytising and religious intimidation was illegal. When Yugoslavia fragmented, hidden religious beliefs and bigotry flared into a decade of wars.

In America, there are a large number of Atheists who must keep quiet about their not believing in Christ. Primary care doctors, dentists, psychologists, chiropractors, small business owners, or anybody running for public office must hide their unbelief. Many I have met at conferences, Physicians, especially those in primary care, would face patient boycotts and loss of years of hard work establishing practice. The only place where one finds Atheist physicians is in academia. I worked for a year at an American University Medical School and Teaching Hospital. The entire Neuroscience Department (8 neurologists and 7 neurosurgeons) were all non-believers. They were protected by law from being fired or loss of tenure for religious dissent.

Like the case of Yugoslavia, I suspect that the number of Non-Theists in America is as much as three times the number recorded in polls. Being outed as an Atheist doctor in Alabama is so seriously harmful, that many will not respond truthfully to polls and many even fake Christianity by visibly attending a church. If America declared real freedom of thought and people accepted that freedom, you might have 20-25% Atheists in the USA. 10% of Soldiers in Vietnam admitted to being Atheists and this was unchanged from WWII. That number will be very low now because the US Military is openly intimidating Atheists on a regular basis. The case of the killing of Pat Tillman by friendly fire is still thought by many to have been a "hate crime."

Amergin

It sounds like many of these atheists are sell outs. If they are going to give Christianity their bodies then they might as well give it their minds because the consequences are all the same.