(Translation by N.J. Dawood: The Koran: With a Parallel Arabic Text, Penguin Classics, 1991)

This Book is not to be doubted.... As for the unbelievers, it is the same whether or not you forewarn them; they will not have faith. God has set a seal upon their hearts and ears; their sight is dimmed and grievous punishment awaits them. --Q 2:1-2:6-2:10; "The Cow," Dawood, pp. 1-2.

The only true faith in God's sight is Islam. --Q 3:19; "The Imrans," Dawood, p. 51.

He that chooses a religion over Islam, it will not be accepted from him and in the world to come he will be one of the lost. --Q 3:85, "The Imrans," Dawood, p. 60.

God's curse be upon the infidels! Evil is that for which they have bartered away their souls. To deny God's own revelation, grudging that He should reveal His bounty to whom He chooses from among His servants! They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits the unbelievers. --Q 2:89-2:90, "The Cow," Dawood, p. 13.

Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love the aggressors.

Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage.... --Q 2:190-2:191, "The Cow," Dawood, p. 28.

[Note that within Islam, many things can and are interpreted to be "aggression," such that the death penalty is freely handed out.]

When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them.... --Q 9:5; "Repentance," Dawood, p. 186.

Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate. --Q 9:73, "Repentance," Dawood, p. 198.

Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme. --Q 4:34, "Women," Dawood, p. 83.

As we might guess, these are some of the Islamic teachings leading to Islamic terror. Would not these remarks constitute hate speech under the laws being tossed up all over the place in order to protect Islam?

I've seen these passages explained by Muslims. I think they are all out of context and they were explained as an account of something that happened years ago.

Passages can be taken out of stories in the Bible and misinterpreted in the same way.

Most Muslims will tell you that Islam is a peaceful religion and they don't interpret those verses literally.

From the Bible:


Here is an interview we held with a Sufi Mystic on this forum. This shows the beauty of islam and defines terms like Jihad and Infidels.
The Fragrance of Faith/Jamal Rahman

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The problem is many don't and so if their wives don't obey they beat them, literally.
In Canada a few months back one guy beat his daughter to death, as she was being immodest in his opinion and he figured he could beat some sense into her, and he had scriptural assurance that it was the proper thing to do.
Sure there are a lot of brilliant people who are also Muslims, but many are not and so take religious things quite literally.

And to not be just picking on the Muslims, every other religion has this problem with simple folk who don't even know what an allegory or metaphor is.


But this is not allegorical at all:

So chauvinism is ordained by Allah and if you don't like it then you'll get a beating to get you in line.
Wow.
Just more religious BS.

Yep... I've seen the same quotes before and they are usually out of context and presented in a negative way...

Islam means surrender to Allah..

"The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account."

The verse is from the A Yusuf Ali translation and is found in Surih 3 verse 19.

Christians also subnmit to God's will and so do Jews. It does not necessarily mean "Islam" as a dispensation or religion per se...

Here are the well known verses in the second Surih ayat 190-191:

190 "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

( Note it is referring to defensive reaction and it is saying "don't transgress the limits"... Don't be a transgressor.)


191 "And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith."

This verse also qualifies the fighting and puts conditions on it...so when someday says the Qur'an advocates aggression they are I believe not considering the actual verses or the circumstances of the revelation itself.

It would take too long on this post to consider all of them as presented in the original post but suffice it to say there are people who are looking at Islam in the most negative light they can and who are subject to prejudices that are many years old ....

- Art

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"it benefits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God."
- Johannes Kepler

As far as the treatment of women goes..

You could make a case that Christinaity also enjoins that husbands are the authority in the family... Have Christians beat their wives? Some have... Have some Muslims beated their wives .. Yep..

In Islam there were certain rights of inheritance that were ahead of their time...I'm not saying though that Islamic ordinances are meant for today's world... They were ahead of their time when first revealed though. So again context of the revelation is ignored and prejudices enter..

To say though that

"And to not be just picking on the Muslims, every other religion has this problem with simple folk who don't even know what an allegory or metaphor is."

Is I believe a broad generalization and ignores that there are progressive elements in religion that do not support beating wives...

- Art

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"it benefits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God."
- Johannes Kepler

Here is Jamal Raman's defiinition of Infidel.

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In order to see the truth in any writing or in fact any thing you have to look "through Gods eyes"
This is defined many ways
Higher vision
Christ sight etc etc

For example

Spare the Rod, Spoil the Child

This can be read as:

Spare the Rod and the child will grow up to be horrible
or
Spare the Rod and give the child everything

Now if you have found Love to be at the centre of your function you would know that this saying means to spoil the child with Love because Love is everything
You would teach the child with Love not with the ROD


It is the same with all writings - you have to have found the "treasure" within your self to see the meaning in its true light

God is Love and hence anything given by God will have its core in LOVE
To understand you have to read from this place.
Watch a film from this place and the same applies - Gods messages are in everything when we look


I see this Love in parts of many writings and yet it appears that the fear of discounting that which doesnt fit it still great in some and so they are to frightened to let the "evil ideas" go
This is really a fear of God because you would not fear to let go of anything if you understood that God is Love

This is why it will take a little time and that is given us all - so that we are brought gently home as any Loving Father would guide his children back to him.

Ok, maybe the man did beat her, but islam doesnt allow torture and all that, so he maybe he wasnt a good muslim or probably he doesnt hav enough knowledge about islam... This happens to many people because they dont have the knowledge to uunderstand thats why they do the wrong.. And this doesnt happen mainly to muslims,... other people are faced with the same thing

I don't think you can best judge the legitimacy and morality of a religion with scriptures not by analysing the usually chaotic and metaphorical scriptures.

The best way to judge the morality and legitimacy of Christianity and Islam is to look at their histories. Christian history really begins when it was made the official and only religion of the Roman Empire by Theodosius I. This was followed by massive persecutions and genocides beginning in 393 AD with the sack of the great Library of Alexandria, the killing of 4000 Pagans in Gaza who refused to convert, and the brutal torture and slaying of the great Neo-Platonic Philosopher Scientist Hypatia of Alexandria. The rest of Christian history from Hypatia's murder by Christian Monks in 412 AD to 1945 is well known. The low points were the Dark Ages, the Crusades, the inter-Christian Wars (Catholic versus Protestant) such as the 30 Years War, the Colonial massacres and enslavements of "infidel" natives beyond Europe, up to Hitler's Holocaust of the Jews inspired partially by the writings of Martin Luther.

Islam began by armed unprovoked conquest of its neighbours beginning with the Persians and Byzantines and expanding to Spain in the West and Turkestan and India in the East. Muslim leaders like Timor e-Lenk, Baybars, Sulieman the Great are most noted for their mass genocidal brutality over conquered peoples. Timur may have been the very worst and comparable only to the Christian Dictator Adolf Hitler.

Christianity in Europe has mellowed considerably in the past 60 years but that is because it is really becoming less Christian and more Deistic in practical belief. The fanaticism of the Dark Ages of Christianity only persists in the Balkans and to a lesser extent in America.

Amergin

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Militant Agnostic: I don't know, and neither do you. There is no evidence of God so belief is optional.

Amergin wrote:

"Islam began by armed unprovoked conquest of its neighbours beginning with the Persians and Byzantines ..."

I look at that period of history a little differently.. Both the Sassanids (Persians) and the Byzantines had client Arab tribes along the border to do their bidding and control trade routes.. The Gassanids operated along the Syrian border and there was a client tribe of the Sassanids that operated south of Mesopatamia. The Arab tribes were divided and so were easy pickins.

Portions of Arabia were held by Ethiopia, the Persian Sassanids and the Byzantines.. They had spheres of influence.

See:

Sassanid Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For centuries the Sassanids and Byzantines were at war.. They were the two "super powers" of the Middle East.

Along came Islam which began uniting the tribes in the Arabian peninsula so the Byzantines and the Sassanids began to feel threatened.. that's why they mobilized large armies to try to bring down the united Arabia under Islam.

-Art

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"it benefits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God."
- Johannes Kepler