Is this a proper use for prayer?

[Eolas Pellor]

I have read about this group a couple of times, in recent days. While I do sympathize (driving a minivan, believe me I sympathize), and I understand that high gas prices are having a really significant impact on lower income people, is it proper to pray/ask for divine intervention to reduce the price of a commodity such as gasoline? After all, this is not exactly asking for your god to give you bread, or to give you health...but really, to give you wealth (or, at least, make your very real wealth (compared to many people in the World) go further.

Is this a good thing? Is it right?
Here's the link Pray at the Pump

[Storm2008]

It strikes me rather tacky.....

[Lightkeeper]

I think what your intention is is more important than what the words are in prayer.

[RevKathyV]

I agre, LK. I do not see anything wrong with praying for material things. It is the intention that is important.

[Eolas Pellor]

Let's say -- just a thought experiment here -- the intention of a prayer is to prevent the needless death of young people in war, but the words are the vocalization of the desire to kill a specific individual.

Do you think your gods should answer such a prayer? Arguably, the intention is good, but I think that the form of the words is something that is difficult to justify, don't you think? I think one really gets into troubled waters by saying that the words don't matter, merely the intent. It's the whole "do the ends justify the means" issue in another guise.

But, to get back to the people praying for reduced gas prices, let's say their intent is to ease their lot here-and-now. Let us not forget that there are a myriad of negative things associated with the production, transportation and use of petrochemicals, and that the negative consequences for future generations certainly outweigh -- my several orders of magnitude -- any benefit associated with the temporary relief of gas prices for people living today. Does anyone, really, have a justification to ask their deity to help poison, starve and impoverish their children, their children's children, and their children's children's children?

While, it is certainly true, that we cannot see all ends, and have no obligation to anticipate things that we can know nothing about, the problems we are talking about here are very well known, and we cannot, without effort or insight, know what will happen if we continue to consume petroleum as we have in the past?

In fact, cannot one make the argument that, rather than praying for prices at the pump to rise, people should be praying that they rise more quickly, and more extremely than they have so far?

[Lightkeeper]

Originally Posted by Eolas Pellor

Let's say -- just a thought experiment here -- the intention of a prayer is to prevent the needless death of young people in war, but the words are the vocalization of the desire to kill a specific individual.

Do you think your gods should answer such a prayer? Arguably, the intention is good, but I think that the form of the words is something that is difficult to justify, don't you think? I think one really gets into troubled waters by saying that the words don't matter, merely the intent. It's the whole "do the ends justify the means" issue in another guise.

But, to get back to the people praying for reduced gas prices, let's say their intent is to ease their lot here-and-now. Let us not forget that there are a myriad of negative things associated with the production, transportation and use of petrochemicals, and that the negative consequences for future generations certainly outweigh -- my several orders of magnitude -- any benefit associated with the temporary relief of gas prices for people living today. Does anyone, really, have a justification to ask their deity to help poison, starve and impoverish their children, their children's children, and their children's children's children?

While, it is certainly true, that we cannot see all ends, and have no obligation to anticipate things that we can know nothing about, the problems we are talking about here are very well known, and we cannot, without effort or insight, know what will happen if we continue to consume petroleum as we have in the past?

In fact, cannot one make the argument that, rather than praying for prices at the pump to rise, people should be praying that they rise more quickly, and more extremely than they have so far?

What language does God speak? Does God hear words?

[Eolas Pellor]

Originally Posted by Lightkeeper

What language does God speak? Does God hear words?

But, remember, that we are the gods' hands, and we hear with human ears.

[Lightkeeper]

It's only in the stillness that we hear God or God hears us. I truly it is our intention that is heard. Words are forms, God is formless.

[Amergin]

Originally Posted by Lightkeeper

What language does God speak? Does God hear words?

I think that people do pray for many things such as the recovery of a sick friend or relative, to pray for an end to war, to pray for economic recovery when one's family is on the edge of starvation.

Personally I believe prayer is totally a waste of time. It doesn't work because there is nobody up there listening. Billions of unanswered prayers are said every day. A small fraction seem to come true but on a mathematical probability independent of supernatural factors.

The only benefit I can see is that it makes the believer feel that he is doing something and not totally helpless. It may relieve his stress even when the situation is not improved.

The only thing that is proven to work is hard human work (self-help) balanced by the difficulty of the task. The old saying "God helps those who help themselves is true. One who prays and does nothing gains nothing tangible. One who prays and rolls up his sleeves to work has a decent chance of succeeding. One who doesn't bother to pray, but rolls up his sleeves has just as much chance of success as the praying believer.

I think it is the psychological effect on the person's stress to think that his prayer may gain the assistance of the magical supernatural being that no one sees.

I only require praying briefly when my 7 year old daughter was dying of lymphoma. It didn't work. I didn't believe that prayer would work. But in the worst days of her suffering, I prayed out of desperation...and it didn't work. I have never bothered praying again. Not at anger to an imaginary being but simply I know it doesn't work.

Amergin

[Eolas Pellor]

Originally Posted by Lightkeeper

It's only in the stillness that we hear God or God hears us. I truly it is our intention that is heard. Words are forms, God is formless.

I think the first part is correct, but not the second...not at all. I think the gods must hear us over the storm, and from the depth of the pit. A god that only hears us when we have time to compose ourselves, to quiet our disquiet, to search him out, would not be much use, really....