Great question, metis. I'm not a real fan of "right" and "wrong" when it comes to belief systems, so I can only say that we each believe what makes sense to us personally. How could we do otherwise? When something makes sense to us, it's not always a matter of fact and figures, evidence or non-evidence. I think that's true especially when it comes to spirituality and religion.

Maybe it's only because this has been the case with me, but I truly believe that there's something within us that desires and recognizes truth (not that it's THE Truth, with a capital "T", but it may be the highest we're capable of at that moment). I like the idea of using love as an example because I think it's very similar. We have different ways of expressing/understanding love and different experiences (names, dates, etc.), though we share the fundamental longing for it with every other human being. Most of us would say that we have some idea about love, but we would hardly say we know everything there is to know about it. But that doesn't seem to matter much, nor does it really change love itself. I think when one has a yearning towards God, it's not about intellectual proof or supportive arguments..... it's about the questions of the heart and soul. Does that make sense?

You asked whether the stance "I don't know" is "OK" or not. I think it's probably the very BEST attitude we can have because it means we're teachable. To use a Buddhist metaphor, I think we have to forgive ourselves and everyone else for seeing the finger instead of the moon. We should all be more teachable - maybe we should love the questions even more than the answers!

This statement is the crucible of rational.
With out a desire for an explaination to believe innocence will prevail in the soul of the existance.
with out a rational observation of belief ignorance shall lead nowhere.
Destruction of the irrational is the only goal of belief.

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GOD is an Acronym, G:reatest O:mnipotent D:eity

I can only answer from my own experience. Often I meet in others a reluctance to open to suffering and their own vulnerability. A lot of the suffering and anguish in the world is swept under the carpet and simplistic diversions are sought and identified with. This seems to me to be a denial of the true potential in humanity to transform our deepest pain into wisdom and compassion - leading to an incapacity for genuine empathy with all others, no matter what creed or race.

Who goes deeper into the pit? Those who have the belief/trust/faith that no matter how deep they go they will be able to return, or those who have no such trust............who believe the rope will snap or doesn't exist at all?

"All shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well" To give our heart to this isn't soft soap, least of all a sop to avoid confronting our truth. For me it is the key that opens my own life to Reality-as-is.

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When the bird and the book disagree, always believe the bird.

tariki...i may be having one of those ams with no brain...are you saying that to be at peace knowing things are as they should be and trusting the powers that be would be a unjust thing...you are saying we should be feeling excessive pain to be a true compassionate person.......I think perhaps it is having been through pits of hell and surviving that allows one to understand the trust and faith one can have to survive and know all is what it is and one can be at peace ....and either side believers and non believers have those that will worry that rope might break and those that would never for a moment think it could break......your last comment...i dont know again what your saying allows you to be open to your reality....is your quote all shall be well...what you believe..or saying is avoidance.....

please be patient...heading for my second cup of coffee then going in for a re read..... 8-)

I like that. Our biggest problem comes from desiring the destruction of those who don't believe as we do.

I agree. The problem is "beyond desiring the destruction of those who don't believe as we do." It is obvious that most people seem to at least dislike those who believe differently (i.e. different gods or versions of God) and those who believe that there is no God. But there are also people who hate those who rationally admit that the existence of God or non-existence of God CAN NOT be known due to the absolute lack of evidence.

Agnosticism or Agnostic Non-Theists are the most rational of all believe groups. Most scientific Atheists are actually Agnostic Non-Theists because they rationally can not deny any god or affirm any god. So-called Hard Atheists should be termed άρνηση ύπαρξη του Θεού (Denial of Existence of God). Can we make an English word to equal the Greek meaning? Or use the Latin Negatiosumdeiist (Denial existence God.)

Amergin

Amergin

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Militant Agnostic: I don't know, and neither do you. There is no evidence of God so belief is optional.

no need for any apologies, I spend most of my time in a complete "no brainer" situation. I just post pretty spontaneously now with no preplanning...... Whats there at the time is what goes out, for better or worse. Thinking back, what prompted my words was the observation I've made that many people tend to "look away" from examples of suffering - via the news or whatever - and seek diversions. To me this is missing an opportunity to open to empathy with others, and our own deep capacity to transform suffering into wisdom/compassion. I tend to agree that all things are a by-product of "wisdom"...................wisdom understood as the "mind/heart, thirsting for emancipation, seeing direct into the heart of reality". My own way is a way of trust in Reality which enables me to open without fear to all the world seems to be, not to shy away from the stream of suffering that seems to shout from every newscast and newspaper.

Perhaps I make too much of "suffering" - I've been into Buddhism for over 30 years and I suppose its teachings have got into my bones. Yet I do think that "suffering/evil" as such is one of the greatest challenges to any form of faith in a "higher power"............and if we are unable to make sense of it, or transform it in some way, then often what "belief" we have can itself be only a diversion.

Sorry if I've only confused you more....

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When the bird and the book disagree, always believe the bird.

tariki...no...I love it, today you have made it much clearer, or might i be in a clearer thinking state...lol...i love to hear people be ...what comes out comes out....that is the reality of one i think..and we live in a world with labels...we did not speak correct or hurt someone or get looked at like we are from another planet etc...and i am not certain to the lines and we as individuals must find them to exist in a human space....i think the suffering you speak of for higher wisdom and such is very true...the most knowledge and depth of understanding mostly comes from the harder lessons...but what i am gathering as of late is...there are many who have gone before us and have learned yet more things that are i think trying to share...the suffering for the peace is not necessary...you really can travel a lighter path and find the joy, peace, love, God what ever ones title is...just being for some...

First of all, let me say that I get the finger a lot .

Secondly, I really liked your response.

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"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge."-- Einstein

I don't think it is all because of subjective feelings. Most of the reasons I believe in God has nothing to do with feelings. With atheists and agnostics it is the same thing. Many of them disbelieve for objective reasons and subjective reasons. For an example, many people disbelieve in God because of the existence of evil.

I agree that no one knows but it is just as offensive to say that people believe because of feelings as it would be to say that people disbelieve because they want a license to sin.

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"I fully comprehended the power of the human mind at the exact moment I came to the realization that I'm totally insane and have no idea what I'm talking about."