Jack wrote:

There are too many non-believers who appear very compassionate for me to conclude that religious belief is necessary to lead a compassionate life. I don't think you said it was but I was curious what you thought about the issue.

Well again I think society has been inlfuenced historically by religion...

Take Asokan India as an example of the influence of say Buddhism in India: Dispensories were establsihed.. road systems were built throughout the Empire and so on so here's an example where religion had an influence toward compassion:

Ashoka the Great - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another Indian example is the development of Satyagraha or "Soul force" which empowered exploited Indian people not to use force of arms but compassion and caring even for the colonial enemy:

Satyagraha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are other examples as well.

Can some unscrupulous people say exploit and use religion for their own ends ...yes. but the reason this happens is not that the religion actually endorses it rather the cloak of religion can be used for say political or fanatic gain.

Are there many non-believers who appear compassionate... Yes, but this is due I would maintain to having values that were instilled in them over time which originally came from religion.

- Art

__________________
"it benefits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God."
- Johannes Kepler

Art,
"Can some unscrupulous people say exploit and use religion for their own ends ...yes. but the reason this happens is not that the religion actually endorses it rather the cloak of religion can be used for say political or fanatic gain."

But it isn't only "unscrupulous" people who do bad things in the name of religion. I'm amazed at what ordinary good people are able to do in the name of religion. Germany, a Christian nation, systematically murdered millions of people. Here in our own country slavery was justified in the Bible by good Christians (and opposed by other good Christians). Thinkers smarter than me have spoken of the "banality of evil".

I would suggest that no group, religious or otherwise, has a markedly greater proportion of compassionate members. In my experience, Christians are just as likely to be mean-spirited and uncaring as non-Christians. They are just as likely to molest children and cheat on their taxes as non-Christians.

"Are there many non-believers who appear compassionate... Yes, but this is due I would maintain to having values that were instilled in them over time which originally came from religion."

I think this is a chicken-or-egg kind of issue. yes, religion can encourage compassion but I suggest if there were no religion compassion would be expressed in other ways because compassion is a part of being human. Religions are expressions of the societies where they reside and religions are influenced by those societies. I grew up in the 50's and 60's in Birmingham, Alabama. Segregation permeated that society including the churches. As a child I heard from the pulpit that "God wants" the races to remain separate. Religions are a tool where societies express their values both compassionate and not compassionate.

I think love and compassion are important enough that they should be promoted everywhere, not just primarily in religions.When religions co-opt love as their own then those who don't believe in that supernatural being are left out. I am very much a non-theist but I am as capable of love and compassion, I daresay, as theists. I donate money to charities and time volunteering. I could always do more, like many of us, but I can see that my ability to love has nothing to do with my belief or non-belief in a particular deity.

Doing these in the name of religion though isn't the same as being true to it..

Many Christians in Europe opposed Nazism ... and died for it.

Also I think you may be confusing the issue.. there can be nontheistic religious people as well. It varies.

Jack wrote:

I think love and compassion are important enough that they should be promoted everywhere, not just primarily in religions.

Well and good.

Jack wrote:

I think this is a chicken-or-egg kind of issue. yes, religion can encourage compassion but I suggest if there were no religion compassion would be expressed in other ways because compassion is a part of being human.

That would wonderful I think if it were only true.. I see compassion resulting from nurturing not being innate. Unless a small child experiences trust and nurturing they won't be very compassionate of others.

Jack:

Religions are expressions of the societies where they reside and religions are influenced by those societies.

True enough it can be one hand washing the other.

Jack:

I grew up in the 50's and 60's in Birmingham, Alabama. Segregation permeated that society including the churches. As a child I heard from the pulpit that "God wants" the races to remain separate.

Were you there when the freedom riders came down south? What motivated Martin Luther King do you suppose... I'll give you some possibles. Mahatma Gandhi maybe and Martin's own Christianity. He was a minister.


- Art

__________________
"it benefits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God."
- Johannes Kepler

Art,
"Unless a small child experiences trust and nurturing they won't be very compassionate of others."

Yes, that's the old "nature vs. nurture" question. I used to think "nurture" was the primary aspect that shapes us but as I've gotten older I've become aware of more and more exceptions. Mt wife was indescribably tortured and physically and sexually abused by both her parents until she was 15 and ran away. She's one of the best people I know full of compassion and empathy and BTW, she is a non-theist. And yet, of course we are shaped by our experiences.

"Were you there when the freedom riders came down south? What motivated Martin Luther King do you suppose... I'll give you some possibles. Mahatma Gandhi maybe and Martin's own Christianity. He was a minister."

I was there but too young and too self-centered to participate. My father was one of the cops who hosed the protesters. But I'm not saying that theists are not capable of great wisdom and compassion. Of course they are and you don't need to defend them from me. My point is simply that religious belief is not required.

Also, you mentioned non-theistic religions. I'm a Buddhist practitioner and a member of a UU Fellowship . So you're right I should have distinguished more. I'm talking about the major monotheistic religions, the ones that claim to have found the only way and everyone else is wrong.

Hey Jack thanks for your post!

Thanks also for sharing from your expereicnes.. Your wife must be very special and a survivor!

Just curious.. what form of Buddhism to you practise..?

- Art

__________________
"it benefits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God."
- Johannes Kepler

Let me add to this what His Holiness the Dalai Lama has stated and written. He states that even as very young children we quickly learn the difference between being nurtured with love versus being ignored or abused, therefore all we need to do is to continue to tap into that most basic lesson. And then we learn that when we please others, we are far more apt to be treated in a similar fashion, which is sort of a variation of karma.

But as you stated above, we often may forget that basic message because we let ourselves become distracted with peripheral attachments. Why do we do this? Probably because the grass seems always greener on the other side. Buying THIS house will make us better. Buying THIS car will make people admire us. Wearing THESE clothes will make us "cool". Etc. And these feelings often become especially acute in a materialistic culture.

__________________
"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge."-- Einstein

I ask myself these questions alot. In my search for answers I find myself thinking of the song title by REM- Losing my religion. That's what it feels like sometimes.
ARE we programmed to be religious? Are we really? I don't know. I'm surprised not to see shaw-n in this thread, as I have seen some of where his/her thoughts lie on this subject and I think his ideas have as much merit as anyone elses mostly because I can't find proof he's wrong. I would love to know what would have happened to us as a species had we never been religious. Or if we had all followed one religion. I really do wonder about such things. Sadly I suspect we'd still be fighting over land and other things.
You know in my house we say you get freckles from being good. I don't know how it started exactly, I'm sure it was one of the kids asking that so often question that children ask "why" and that was an answer that I gave in fun. Now we all know it's not true even the 6 year old but we still say it and maybe it's no coincidence that as I have the most freckles of anyone else in my house, I benefit the most from this idea My 6 year old still get's excited to find a freckle, I guess as proof of good behaviour even though it is nothing more then a game. But in 2000 years could such a thought grow and be a common belief?