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Spirituality Discuss the various aspects of spirituality and any spiritual experiences you want to share.

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 25th June 2008, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tariki
I was just drifting around the forum yesterday and happened to see this thread and it just seemed to give my mind a nudge. It sent my memory back to my very first posting on a Buddhist forum, when I interrupted a profound discussion that was taking place between a couple of Zens, based upon Shunryu Suzuki’s book “Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind” from which I believe the original quote comes from. I remember at the time that I experienced just a little trepidation in wading in, as I had always found that book strangely boring and had never managed to get beyond page twenty. At the time I realised that I would either have to say just that or remain forever in chains, afraid to speak my mind! Well. I spoke it…………………….and my words, as you can imagine, went down like a lead balloon and I was in all probability dismissed by many on the forum to the Buddhist wastelands, though all were far too polite to say so! Anyway, I seem to be waffling.

For me, the “expert” mind is the mind of a forever-fixed definitive opinion. Opinions are not too bad in themselves but when we become stuck in them and they become unquestioned we seem to lose forever a form of childlike innocence that is always open to experience. This can be understood and explained by the simple way we learn and assimilate knowledge………………..We see an article in a newspaper - as an example - that tells us that a Penny Black stamp was sold at auction for two hundred pounds. “And how much is a Penny Black worth?” “Oh!” says the expert mind, “two hundred pounds!” A few days later we might read that a joined set of four Penny Black’s sold for a thousand pounds. Our answer to the question would then become something like “Oh, depends on whether they are single or in sets”. THEN, later again, we read that a Penny Black in mint condition sold for £500. Well, I won’t labour the point – I possibly already have! – but that’s how it goes. Eventually I suppose the one with “beginner’s mind” will say upon being asked the value, “show it to me” and await reality to strike!!

So knowledge and opinions are not wrong in themselves, and there is a true sense in which we need to seek and gain greater knowledge, but it just seems to me that it needs to be a path towards some sort of “dropping” of opinion (even “ego”?) and allowing Reality-as-is to Be. When the opinions become fixed they have the potential to create barriers between people.

This all seems to have affinities with the Middle Way of Buddhism, of which Thomas Merton said……………..”It was the Buddha’s aim not to give a ‘final’ speculative answer but to be free from all theories and to know, by experience……………he wanted not a third position lying between two extremes but a no-position that supersedes them both. This is the Middle Way”

Anyway, this is all my opinion………………….and I’m sticking to it!
Great post! Thank you!!
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Old 25th June 2008, 05:51 PM
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tariki..

"……………..”It was the Buddha’s aim not to give a ‘final’ speculative answer but to be free from all theories and to know, by experience……………he wanted not a third position lying between two extremes but a no-position that supersedes them both."

And is this not the experts mind by reason that the FINAL position of no position transcends all possabilities?

Zen's thrust is to periceive beyond mind isn't it? Which is the reason for mind breaking koans. At first the student searches thru any number of possabilites as answers to the problem until it's obviouse there are none and the mind trips out allowing for direct perception.

Would also add that the experts mind (in the context we are discussing) is not a mind that is narrow in conceptualisations, it has transcended concept so is expert only to the expert as non conceptualisation cannot be taught.
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Old 25th June 2008, 06:17 PM
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Are we glorifying the "expert's mind?"
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Old 25th June 2008, 10:49 PM
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Lightkeeper..

"Are we glorifying the "expert's mind?""

Not at all. Because mind is a collection of concepts which determine view and we are talking the conceptualess mind of the expert,( in this case zen) meaning what is there to glorify?

i said it could not be taught, and it can't be but that is not to say that there is not a process of self discovery of it which can be taught. So it's back to the Buddha thing of experience for one's self.

i find it VERY interesting that the word 'expert' seems to raise some lightly negative responses on this thread....i wonder why? Expert is someone who is experienced in his field.
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Old 25th June 2008, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
In the beginner’s mind there are many possibilities, in the expert’s mind there are few. - SUZUKI-ROSHI

I get from this quote that the expert's mind is not as positive as the beginner's mind. In other words if one thinks they are Buddhalike and very zen, they aren't.
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Old 26th June 2008, 03:06 AM
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That was a great post, tariki. I agree with everyone who's said that the beginner's mind is more open, more innocent, and hence more teachable. The so-called expert is the person who has "all the answers" or is simply unable to see things a different way.
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Old 26th June 2008, 04:29 AM
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Lightkeeper...

"In other words if one thinks they are Buddhalike and very zen, they aren't."

Exactly because even those would be concepts of the conceptualess, and zen is full of stories of beginners who have made that mistake

However i don't see any right or wrong here, we each learn something from thinking about the meaning of the saying. For instance i am seeing the expert as a zen teacher and i think ( a guess) you are seeing a worldy expert. And our friend Suzuki doesn't specifiy.

But when it comes to possabilities i think both the expert and the beginner would have to show respect for most women who can find a plethera of uses for a simple kitchen measuring cup
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Old 26th June 2008, 04:49 AM
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Does a true zen teacher see his or herself as an expert? Does a true zen teacher see his or herself as further along on a path? I think expert is egoic. I don't think the Self would recognize anyone as an expert.
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Old 26th June 2008, 05:49 PM
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Lightkeeper...

"Does a true zen teacher see his or herself as an expert? Does a true zen teacher see his or herself as further along on a path? I think expert is egoic. I don't think the Self would recognize anyone as an expert."

One without ego is free to act spontainiously even if others think it's ego, as being without ego he doesn't care what others think.

A true zen teacher may write books using words like 'expert' and 'beginner' because he knows the readers are still stuck in conceptuality. A zen 'expert' does not communicate zen, he communicates ABOUT zen.
No he may never call himself an expert but accepts the title 'master' and calls others 'master'
The clue in the saying was the word 'possabilities' Possabilities are possabilities only when there is more then one answer which is why koans are given to which there is no answer other then direct perception which transcends all concept.

A post or so back i mentioned i detected slight negative responses to the word 'expert" i find this interesting because the word carries a connotation for some...also interesting is the word 'master' which for some carries an eqauly negative connotation. It might be enlightening to check into the feelings about the words and why because negative OR positive connotation will color judgement.

If the words master, expert and beginner are looked up in the dictionary the word beginner is as in novice.

Expert or beginner? All things being equal i know who i would choose to teach me.
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