A lively little discussion! As seems already to have been said, it seems to come down to the sense in which we use and understand the words "beginners" and "expert". With what knowledge I DO have of Suzuki's book, I think that there is little doubt that in his original quote he was seeking to extol the virtues of "beginner's mind" over that of the "expert". Yet if I need brain surgery - and I most probably do!! - it would be an expert that I would seek out rather than a beginner! Yet again, given the terms being used in their full contexts, there need be no conflict...........the expert brain surgeon could yet have beginners mind, possible demonstrated by the subtle deftness with which he/she would wield the knife and even more - perhaps - in post-op empathy with the patient. It does seem to come back to intergration, knowledge with wisdom/compassion. This makes me think of some words of the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart when he speaks of the "true" poverty in his sermon on the Gospel phrase/beatitude "blessed are the poor in spirit". He states that if we still have a place in our hearts for God we have not yet reached the state of true poverty of which Jesus spoke..........."for God does not intend there to be a place in someone where He can act, but if there is to be true poverty of spirit, someone must be so free of God and all His works that if God wishes to act in the soul He must Himself be the place in which He can act.............if God finds us THIS poor......then we attain again the eternal being which we once enjoyed, which is ours now and shall be for ever." Despite the Theistic language, I believe Eckhart shows in these words just why he is known to many Buddhists as a "dharma brother".

Integration....expert/beginner!!

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When the bird and the book disagree, always believe the bird.

In every field of study, the beginner, having little understanding, is open to a great deal. As learning and expertise accumulate, patterns of knowledge become somewhat hardened, although they are usually very deep.

So, for example, the example given above of the brain surgeon. The experienced brain surgeon, with thousands of procedures under his scalpel, is the preferred choice for a well-understood procedure.

But note, it is most often beginners who, because so much is open to them, make the new discoveries. So if I have a brain condition which has never been seen by medical science, I might just want one of them on the medical team!

It is pretty clear that new discoveries in a great many fields, especially in the sciences, are made by young men, fresh out of learning institutions and embarking on their own careers. This is especially true in mathematics and physics, where many discoveries have been made by those who have not yet turned 30.

Taking a look at several sciences, here's some interesting numbers from a study of 1,884 researchers and their discoveries. The first number is the median age at which practioners made their first contribution to their field. The second number is the median age at which they made their best contribution (Source: Dean K. Simonton, University of California at Davis):

Mathematics: 27.3 -- 38.8
Astronomy: 30.5 -- 40.6
Physics: 29.7 -- 38.2
Chemistry: 30.5 -- 38.0
Biology: 29.4 -- 40.5
Medicine: 32.3 -- 42.1
Technology: 31.6 -- 39.7
Earth sciences: 30.9 -- 42.5
Other: 33.4 -- 41.6

I think what is clear is that younger, fresher minds, because they have not yet become "set in their ideas," are better positioned to make new discoveries, to generate new ideas. Older, more experienced minds, are apt to be the much deeper experts in the science or discipline which has already been discovered. I would make the bold assumption that the same may well be true for spiritual disciplines as well.

Thus, both seem to me to be very useful.

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evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.

I think it's possible for the expert mind to become the beginner's mind again and they may well be a goal. I think the quote is more about being than doing or learning. I think we have to unlearn in order to truly be.

By quieting the mind we create a space for the wellspring to refresh us.

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InterfaithForums.com-Where your ideas and beliefs count.

Lightkeeper...

"I think it's possible for the expert mind to become the beginner's mind again and they may well be a goal."

Lovely.
Yes, there is agreement with that, the expert mind is the mind of a beginner, spontainiouse and fluid, without the beginner's confusion, and the experts rigidity.
Transcending both knowledge and confusion.

Bravo!!!
I wouldn't be able to say it better.

Thank you.

A. P.

evangelicalhumanist,

thanks for your post, an excellant reminder of the secular dimension to this discussion! It really does show the value of forums such as this.

Thanks again
Derek

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When the bird and the book disagree, always believe the bird.

If anyone is interested.....................

I have the sad habit of reading as I sit on the loo. Just outside our loo, on the landing, we have a little bookcase that contains a wealth of "spiritual" food! Krishnamurti, Eckhart, New Testament, Dhammapada and a host of books on various Faiths and traditions. Anyway, just a day or two ago I happened to grab a book by the psychotherapist Mark Epstein before entering the chamber to do my business. The book was "Going to Pieces Without Falling Apart" and its beginning jolted my memory in respect of this thread. It refered to a particular story from the Zen ( Buddhist) tradition that had played on the edge of my memory ever since seeing this particular thread on "Do you agree?" It actually articulates the specific Buddhist context of Suzuki's original quote. The story goes as follows........

A smart and eager university professor comes to an old Zen master for teachings. The Zen master offers him a cup of tea and upon the man's acceptance he pours the tea into the cup until it overflows. As the professor politely expresses his dismay at the overflowing cup, the Zen master keeps on pouring. "A mind that is already full cannot take in anything new," the master explains. "Like this cup, you are full of opinions and preconceptions." In order to find happiness, he teaches his disciple, he must first empty his cup.

Drawing upon this story, the author then speaks of the premise that he expands upon as the subject matter of his book, that the Western notion of just what it means to have a "self" is flawed............that we approach life like the professor in the story, filling ourselves up the way the master filled the cup with tea...............Afflicted, as we are, with a kind of psychological materialism, we are concerned primarily with beefing ourselves up.
Self-development, self-esteem, self-confidence, self-expression, self-awareness, and self-control are our most sought after attributes. But Buddhism teaches us that happiness does not come from any kind of acquisitiveness, be it material or psychological. Happiness comes from letting go. In Buddhism, the impenetrable , separate, and individuated self is more of the problem than the solution.

Well, so says "Buddhism"................just another "ism". This is no attempt to tout its wares!!! Just the offer of a few words for reflection. Personally, I do find that "letting go" points towards the heart of faith, rather than any clinging TO any "belief" or "creed". And that this has connections with the meaning of "beginners mind"

I would just like to insist that for me "beginners mind" has nothing whatsoever to do with any form of reversion to some sort of "oceanic state" of "original innocence". Reality - or "creation" - is meaningful, as something to assimilate or "pass through", a "knowledge" to be gained and in a sense "understood"..........before it can be "dropped". This is where it all becomes a little "misty" for me!!!!! It is just extremely important for me to insist that any true path never involves any betrayal of this world for any perceived (better) "other", but involves a profound acceptance and understanding of THIS world, the only one we have ever known.

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When the bird and the book disagree, always believe the bird.

tariki.... such nice posts...maybe you could dig us up a daily quote...

next time i try to converse with someone who seems hard headed...perhaps i could offer them some tea and forget to stop pouring....then try to eplain...problem being of course...couple of things...one my need to think i need somoene to understand..and second...if i think they are hard headed...this method would not touch that...so perhaps at best i should jot down the little ditty and offter it to be read...or stay quiet and hope they find it on there own in there time...ohhhh...the let go...just be...somedays that seems so natural...then others it is quite hard...oh well i am rambling again...anyway...thanks for your nice post

Thanks for your great post Tariki. I feel you have touched on a subject that deserves it's own thread...hint...hint : )

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May your awareness be perfection

Many thanks Sendy and Viv for your kind posts.

As far as a hint hint new thread, I think I much prefer peeping in on other threads rather than seeking to be a conductor. Peeping in, my mind can flop around at will. A conductor needs a little more discipline...........

As a little thank you, a quote..............(though to post one a day would be beyond my meagre powers!)..........

If there be anywhere on earth a lover of God who is always kept safe, I know nothing of it, for it was not shown to me. But this was shown: that in falling and rising again we are always kept in that same precious love.

(Julian of Norwich)

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When the bird and the book disagree, always believe the bird.