While posting last night on the "Do you Believe in Miracles" thread, I realized that when we actually begin to witness phenomena that could be considered "supernatural" or "miracles", encountering something beyond the realm of our experience can be a mixed blessing.

There are several possible reactions:

1) I'm losing my mind. This is a very common reaction. I have found that we get as much proof as we need for OURSELVES. In my case, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt as a person with a scientific background that what I'm witnessing is not a symptom of insanity. I have concrete proof I can point to again and again to remind me, plus many things witnessed and recorded jointly with others. With that said, there can be a problem with others you talk to about said experiences, who have been taught that any such experience beyond the norm MUST be insanity. But that's another topic altogether. The important thing is to convince yourself that there are concrete aspects to what you are experiencing that are not just "in your head". And also to take it slow, that's very important too, as it is important to stay grounded in the midst of spiritual phenomena. People can and do lose touch with reality out of sheer awe and excitement, often giving up sleep (I know of a friend going through this now, who I'm a bit concerned about), and that's not the idea, because then you are going to have an even tougher time convincing yourself and loved ones that you are not insane.

2) It's demonic. This is HUGE problem for anyone raised as an evangelical, as I was. It literally took God holding my hand EVERY step of the way to FINALLY be convinced that demons were NOT toying with me. I know that sounds a bit odd and even paranoid (perhaps making you wonder about #1, lol) , but you need to grow up in the evangelical church to understand. As a child, I was constantly warned that demons can trick us in very concrete ways, and if you see a miracle that is not specifically related to Biblical truths, then it is demonic in nature.

3) It's some other sort of entity, maybe extraterrestrials (or terrestrials we don't know about). I know this sounds really freaky too, but hey, as a scientist, you can't leave anything out, and it's pretty short-sighted to believe we are the only life in this vast universe. So next, some entertain the notion that the remarkable phenomena could be originating from some other source, not God, not demons, but an alternative life form. In fact, I was going to tell EH on my other thread that a really good scientific theory is that we are all part of a giant computer simulation, which is why the radio can be manipulated etc. This is actually not an implausible theory, and would probably be the default if scientists started to see what we are seeing. Maybe we are all on the Holodeck of some big ship and when it shuts down, we'll all get about our missions (lol) - or is it so funny? An inquiring open mind is essential when encountering experience beyond the norm and the ability to examine what is happening from ALL possible angles.

4) It's God (or an entity at least approaching God-like qualities, since God is difficult to define - see my other thread "How do you define God?"). Believe it or not, #4 will take you to not only the Ultimate Hope, but to the Ultimate Fear, at least for many. You see, many of us are not too thrilled with what has been happening on Planet Earth. Horrendous violence and suffering throughout our history, for example, including in the present day. Yes, there is also Love and joy, but what of the violence and suffering? So ultimately, most people really don't WANT to see miracles proving that God exists because of what they fear MOST of all - if God DOES exist, God is either limited by some other force or not benign (which of course would mean "God" as most choose to define "God" doesn't exist at all, but we won't go there at the moment). To know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is Something out there much greater than yourself (as you know yourself now) can be just about the most frightening thought imaginable. And also the most hopeful.

I have talked with many atheists and agnostics in my online journeys, and I think the most terrifying thought of all for them is that God DOES exist because they are not too happy with God's handiwork. This is even more frightening than Satan existing (the problem with Satan being the cause of all the evil is that it limits God too much and puts us at Satan's mercy). No, being at GOD's mercy is the REAL fear. Because God does not APPEAR to be completely benign.

So what is a person to do? Let me tell you I have been through this BIG time since I have witnessed concrete things that simply are not in the normal realm of experience. And when I get caught in a spiral of fear, it skews everything, yet another problem. One can always come up with a potentially threatening explanation for EVERYTHING, especially if you were taught to distrust supernatural entities, as I was as a young evangelical. In fact, I didn't know how to trust God OR Satan, as I couldn't really tell the difference based on God's reported behavior. That's a real problem. And it leads many ex-evangelicals straight to atheism.

At times, I STILL have trust issues with God, Spirit, Source, our Creator, All That Is, etc., whatever you choose to call it. But it's the Love that is daily delivering me from the Fear. The Love is teaching me to trust. And finally I realized that this is why we are here, to bring Love forth, even in the most unlikely of circumstances. I don't claim to fully understand it (yes, the suffering part STILL upsets me at times), but it's the only way I know of coming to terms with God. And my own free choice as a soul is extremely important - for me, it is very important to realize that nobody is doing this to us, entrapping us in this sometimes dubious existence on Planet Earth. No, we are here by choice. Anything else would suggest that God is either not benign or limited in power by some other entity.

There is another view, one I entertain at times, and that is that Balance is key, pure Balance between light and darkness, and that's our goal. But I struggle with that one too since I believe Love triumphs over all. And pure Balance is lukewarm at best, not really a desirable place to be in my opinion. I suspect Balance (ala ying/yang) may have something to do with what is going on in the universe, but Love is an overriding factor, ultimately redeeming even the worst of situations. And it is this Love which can indeed finally free us from our fear of God.

Peace and Love,
BridgeBuilder

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To build a bridge, it is not enough just to have an understanding of both sides of the river, although that is a challenge indeed. Only with the guidance of Love can one master the chasm in between.

Is it God or our picture of God?

Great post Bridgebuilder...and I can validate those thoughts. How are we to know an illusion from a God experience?

The other day I woke up and there was a light shining above my head on the cealing. This "light" had somewhat a shape of an uncut crystal. I was able to observe it and it's many different facets and depths of light.

I have had many such "visions" but this one was a little different. Usually I am observed by a vision...meaning I forget where I am...who I am...and that I am. But this time I was able to look around....I looked to see where there "light" could be coming from. But the curtains were drawn...and no other light source apparent.

I heard my husband (LOL I am married!) moving around the house and then coming into the bedroom to ask me a question. We talked for a short time and then he went back out. I looked up to the cealing and the "light" was gone.

I don't know what sets an illusion apart from a mystical experience (since all appearances are illusions from a spiritual perspective), but I do know that when these "vision" bring more peace, love, joy and insight into my consciouness and my life.

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May your awareness be perfection

Bridgebuilder...

i enjoy reading your posts....i say that often on this forum but it makes it no less sincere.

IMO, i think there is fear with encountering god because at some depth of us the requirements to do so are basicly unknown, if they were not the majority would be doing it.

Interesting vision Vivamis.....

i woke up one morning with the mind a blank. i do mean blank, did not know even know what i was and had no words for it, no language, the mind of a baby. Panic till the mind kicked in and the first word was 'human'
So in the world of conceptualisation this word/concept is the primary one for me... to celebrate it gently while realising it's limitations.

I think the only fear that exists (even as an illusion) is the fear of loosing ourself.

__________________
May your awareness be perfection

Hi All

I know I often say the same thing, that I have expereinced God and on that you will have to take my word

The following is part of the path I was led along and I think it validates what you are being led to - in many ways


The "light" of my life was my Nan

No matter what I did I was her angel - forever perfect

I had 2 "mystical expereinces - one multiple and one a single event

The first was from the age of about 12 ish

I would dream a very vivid dream and then it would happen - perhaps a few days later, sometimes months - often lasting for a period of a few minutes
This led me to the thought that not everything was as it seems - but it felt very normal and my familly joked about it alot

About the age of about 25 I was greeted by a beautifull scene where a man was cutting wood
I was overcome with Love - beyond words at the scene and everything just turned golden
I have to say one of my first thoughts was "i am turning gay" and then i realised it was nothing to do with body attraction
Again it felt normal and if anything i just plain forgot it


Aged about 30 i pondered on this God fella
I read a few pages of the Bible and it just didnt make sense - one minute love and the next wrath ?

I thought to myself "IF there is a Loving father" then he would not leave his child blind
IF this "God" fella is not Loving then I want nothing to do with "Him"

I cant tell you why but I was certain I would be shown IF this Loving God was truth

Again I left it like that

My wife had a huge breakdown and there were many many forgivness lessons - lessons on Loving someone without demanding anything etc etc
Love without control

Aged 37 my Nan died - I wasnt there when she died and there was an instance of guilt - she had always been there for me and yet i wasnt there for her
I decided there and then i would no longer put anything before Love...
Yet there was another idea - That she would never ever see me as anything but perfect - In that was my comfort - I knew I was forgiven and had done nothing wrong

I watched the old film called "Jesus of Nazereth" and I just saw complete "purpose" in what Jesus did - Now thats a purpose came to mind !
Not the Religion - but the love - the peace - the absolute faith in Love
Work and all else paled into irrelevance compared to this

By now I really saw the value of Love above all else - I can only explain it like that and it was clear that to expereince love, we had to let the past go
We could have a united World if we just let it all go
I also saw that we are all the same - that its only our past expereinces that seem to make us different - again I cant say how - it was just thoughts flowing into my head

2 months later I sat down and watched a film ( i had seen an advert for it and it was odd in hindsight but there was importance that i saw it ) and in it is a scene where one person forgives another - just wanting happiness for the other - Just wanting to always see them through Gods eyes
It was stunning - absolutely beautifull and I was lifted on a tide of Love

Yet this did not stop - it continued and built gently and perfectly beyond any description
There was perfect peace and no fear
Then the light, two yet one, not in "human form" or in form at all yet clearly two
They were friends but i didnt know how or why - yet i knew them and the happiness to see each other was - well wow !
Then in an instance as if they were not important i was beckoned to look to there left and i became one in there thoughts yet not losing self

As I looked I saw a circle of Golden light and then the LOVE increased beyond anything explainable - absolute AWE

The rest cannont be described as it is the expereince of God in which only LOVE exists
The thoughts of anything other than that do not exist here at all
While you may expect to be shown there is no death, it isnt mentioned - it would be insanity to even consider that in this

Now you have mentioned above how do you know when you expereince God
My answer is this and it is completely inadequate - yet the best I can offer
Imagine the greatest Eureka moment, imagine losing your keys and then thinking o yes - thats where they are, imagine waking from a dream and in that instant saying o yes thats who i am - It is not a new expereince but a remembering of what we are - Yet it is in infinity and you know there is nothing outside fo this idea - You KNOW there is nothing esle or no other perspective - because what you expereince is ALL forever.
It is not something where you say "i think" it was this or that
There is nil uncertainty and again beyond description

You become one with infinity and no longer ask what am i and what is it all for

You KNOW because you remember

Gods name is LOVE and we are as he is NOW
There is a difference between us and God and only one - God created us and we exist because he knows it - All is in thought and that is where we exist
That is our perfect safety

So I hope you will take this from me as I have little to gain in this world by offering it other than to be mocked - yet it is the truth of all of us and that is Gods promise to us all for eternity

Not one of us will be left behind

There is nothing to fear because that does not exist in GOD

God final Judgement will be made by us


GODS SON IS INNOCENT

And we are his SON


with No exceptions

When something happens that one was not prepared for, fear can grip you out of nowhere, equally unexpectedly. In my experience, what was feared (eg, the feeling of a strong presence) really wasn't anything to fear. IOW, I made it through the experiences unscathed, if rattled. In Casteneda terms, perhaps it was the exposure to an ally. Realizing that nothing bad happened except becoming suddenly terrified helped me to see that with repeated exposure to the object of the irrational fear eventually made the fear go away.
I do suspect that deeper in the rabbit hole, I might be afraid again but hope with repeated exposure, putting my feet in the dark water of the unknown, testing it, learning it won't truly harm me, I will learn to not be afraid of whatever might be there.

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peace for all
love for all
bliss for all

...may your journey be graceful...

If anything is possible, then the statement, "anything is possible," is possibly false.

I can so relate to your post M.T. Not just with "spiritual experiences" but also everyday life experiences. I used to be terrified of dogs, big ones and small ones...and even cats and other animals. That's all gone through exposure with them.

It's like the old sayiing: Face your fears.

In relationship to spiritual experiences: As long as I can remember, I have been able to see those that have passed over. When I was only a teenager it scared me to death. I would pray every night that no one would appear.

Through the death of my youngest brother, 8 years ago, I lost all fear of seeing them.

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May your awareness be perfection

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain." - Frank Herbert

When you eliminate the fear of god, you likely (but not always) end up at one of two possible conclusions: One; the relinquishment of fear brings the person much closer to god. Two; god ceases to exist. It is up to the individual to make their choice, whatever it may be.

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"The Lord can make you tumble, the Lord can make you turn, the Lord can make you overflow...but the Lord can't make you burn." - Randy Newman

Wow, I have never thought of it that way.

Did I loose my fear and therefore get closer to god....or did I get closer to God and therefore lost my fear?

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May your awareness be perfection