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Old 1st January 2006, 07:32 PM
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Tao Te Ching - Chapter 2

Under Heaven all can see beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness.
All can know good as good only because there is evil.
Therefore having and not having arise together.
Difficult and easy complement each other.
Long and short contrast with each other;
High and low rest upon each other;
Voice and sound harmonise each other;
Front and back follow one another.
Therefore the sage goes about doing nothing, teaching no talking.
The ten thousand things rise and fall without cease, creating, yet not possessing, working, yet not taking credit, work is done, then forgotten.
Therefore it lasts for ever.
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Old 1st January 2006, 07:34 PM
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My translation by John C.H. Wu says "When all of the world recognizes beauty as beauty, this in itself is ugliness." Also recognizing good as good is in itself evil, etc.
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Old 2nd January 2006, 12:57 AM
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Here is my translation:

SELF-PERFECTION

When the world speaks of beauty as being beautiful, ugliness is at once defined.

When goodness is seen to be good, evil is at once apparent.

So do existence and non-existence give rise to one another, as that which is difficult and that which is easy, distant and near, high and low, shrill and bass, preceding and following.

The sage thereofore is occupied only with that which is without prejudice.

He teaches without verbosity, he acts without effort; he produces without possessing, he acts without regard to the fruit of action; he brings his work to perfection without assuming credit; and claiming nothing as his own, he cannot at any time be said to lose.

What Lao Tsu is relating in my opinion is that the true sage is not interested in ideas of justice or morality or aesthetics. Those thinks only exist in a dualistic interpretation and one beholden to that interpretation sees oneself as separate from the true Tao. The sage has no such prejudice and his oneness with the Tao allows his actions to flow through them in such a way that others see the actions as good, true, and beautiful.

Travis
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Old 2nd January 2006, 04:58 AM
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I take it that the sage does what he needs to do to the best of his ability and then moves on. He doesn't judge or dwell on anything. He teaches by taking action, but is not aware that he is teaching. He doesn't own anything so he doesn't lose anything and that can be taken spiritually or materially. The eternal is being completely absorbed in the moment and then forgetting it.
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Last edited by Lightkeeper : 2nd January 2006 at 05:18 PM.
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Old 2nd January 2006, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
When all the world recognizes beauty as beauty, this in itself is ugliness.
When all the world recognizes good as good, this in itself is evil.
Indeed the hidden and the manifest give birth to each other.
Difficult and easy complement each other.
Long and short exhibit each other.
High and low set measure to each other.
Voice and sound harmonize each other.
Back and front follow each other.
Therefore, the Sage manages his affairs without ado.
And spreads his teaching without talking.
He denies nothing to the teeming things.
He rears them, but lays no claim to them.
He does his work, but sets no store by it.
He accomplishes his task, but does not dwell upon it.
And yet it is just because he does not dwell upon it,
That nobody can ever take it away from him.

John C.H. Wu
The first couple lines show that taoists view the world as neutral. Good and evil do not exist, and indeed thinking that one does is futile in understanding the nature of Tao.

The next discusses the actual nature of "opposites" according to Lao Tzu. Showing that neither are better or worse then the other. But are just as necessary as the other.

He then points out that when this is understood, the sage can better live his life in peace. For the Tao creates all things, yet makes no claim to them. Does it's work but sets no store by it. Accomplishes all it's tasks yet does not dwell upon it. This is why nothing can be taken away from Tao. So taoists follow this path, and thus live closer to the nature of Tao. And hopefully become one with it. Even in life.

The Tao does not stop moving for even a second, why then should a Taoist?
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Old 30th March 2006, 05:45 PM
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Taoism Reminds me of the Genesis myth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Clementsmith
Here is my translation:

SELF-PERFECTION

When the world speaks of beauty as being beautiful, ugliness is at once defined.

When goodness is seen to be good, evil is at once apparent.

Travis

The "fall" of "Adam/first man" and "Eve/first woman" was brought about by their sudden awareness of good and evil.

The story, I think, far predates any Hebrew/Jewish identity or religion as such, but was co-opted by them in their scriptures, and tailored to fit their understanding of YHWH.
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Old 30th March 2006, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dndylion
The "fall" of "Adam/first man" and "Eve/first woman" was brought about by their sudden awareness of good and evil.

The story, I think, far predates any Hebrew/Jewish identity or religion as such, but was co-opted by them in their scriptures, and tailored to fit their understanding of YHWH.
Are you trying to say that Lao Tzu is talking about adam and eve?
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