Originally Posted by evangelicalhumanist

But this is at the heart of what I'm asking. You have to remember, I'm trying to understand what religion is, and why it does what it does.

(I am thinking, in what follows, of religion in the formal sense, not individual religious feeling. Humans may sometimes be quite individual in their thinking, but it is an essential part of human nature to band together and the groups that we form take on quite different characteristics, perhaps, than any of their individual members.)

Think about it this way. There are 2 billion Christians in the world, some proportion of which believes that salvation (eternal life in God) is available only through Baptism and acceptance of Christ as Lord and Saviour. Having done that, salvation is by grace.

There are about 1.1 billion Muslims in the world. They do not believe that the way to salvation is through Christ, but by doing God's will (not so much through grace as through right action).

Then there are the eastern religions with multiple reincarnations until whatever the heck Nirvana is. There are pagan religions that don't believe in a salvation at all, and others that see the valiant sitting at the long table with their valiant forefathers.

Now, I want to take a look at a couple of very specific activities taken by Christians, Muslims and Jews, and examine how those fit with the idea so often expressed here of "everyone has their own path to..." These activities are variously called excommunication, disfellowshipping, shunning. And on the other side of that coin is the idea of punishment for apostasy (abandoning "the faith" in favour of another, or none).

Most of us think that excommunication and its varieties only expresses some truth about the excommunicate's relationship to God and the Church, but this is not quite true. All varieties of excommunication insist that members in good standing of the religious community shun the excommunicate in every way. This is an extremely important temporal punishment, since the very nature of most human activity is community. In religiously homogenous communities, excommunication can literally ruin lives and families.

(And just as a side note, excommunication need not be formal. Human communities can and do subtly exclude, to the great detriment of those excluded. One might have thought that belief in a "loving God" would lead people to see the evil of such exclusion, but apparently, it doesn't.)

When thought of that way, we cannot but admit that the right to free will, to follow one's own path, is, in the view of many religious communities, not unfettered. In fact, there are quite specific requirements, and if those requirements are not met, punishment can be quite dire.

In a similar way, punishment (up to and including death among some Muslim communities) for apostasy is an absolute denial of the freedom to choose one's own path to God.

Now, I am willing to allow that there are individual members of the faiths in question that do not quite believe that heterodox opinions require excommunication, nor apostasy punishment or even death, but if the faiths continue to espouse and do those things, then I must also assume that many members do agree. If the vast majority felt that something in their faith was clearly wrong, why would they not insist on changing it?

But then, I'm reminded that the Catholic Church is routinely ignored on matters such as contraception, but that just leaves me even more confused than before.

Originally Posted by Tenbones

So let me ask this - does anyone here on this particular thread look at what other people post and in relation to what you've read has it changed your own outlook on your particular "path" as Lightkeeper put it?

Originally Posted by Tenbones

So let me ask this - does anyone here on this particular thread look at what other people post and in relation to what you've read has it changed your own outlook on your particular "path" as Lightkeeper put it?

I think in light of EH's meme it's a pretty relevant question. Because I *think* I've seen people's posts change tenor across the board and move a little more center. I'm not assuming anyone has changed paths or anything. Perhaps it's just me? Personally I think it's a good thing.

Originally Posted by angeleyes

It's helped me realized that it's not just our beliefs that are important, but also our desire to join with others.

Originally Posted by evangelicalhumanist

When I set out on this, I had hoped it would be so much more than that.

Make no mistake, I did not begin this with the idea that I would change anybody's belief systems (including my own). However, I do feel that how we act upon our beliefs, and how we interpret and accept the beliefs of others (and how they act upon those beliefs) might well be amenable to change.

The central idea behind this is my own sense that of all things, our allegiance to the rest of humanity is the most important thing. How each person behaves towards each other person, and thus how each group behaves towards each other group, has ripple effects that go where none of us can really understand, and yet, can there be any doubt that much of what humans experience in this world is the direct and indirect consequence of the actions of themselves and others, both close to them and very far removed from them.

Thus, I think that people who really do think about what they believe, and who think about others before they act upon what they believe, can help to improve the world for all. This can be a most deliciously selfish activity, too, because changing the world for the better has positive benefits for the changer as well.

I'm still thinking how to proceed, because that's a pretty huge topic.

Originally Posted by evangelicalhumanist

When I set out on this, I had hoped it would be so much more than that.

Make no mistake, I did not begin this with the idea that I would change anybody's belief systems (including my own). However, I do feel that how we act upon our beliefs, and how we interpret and accept the beliefs of others (and how they act upon those beliefs) might well be amenable to change.

The central idea behind this is my own sense that of all things, our allegiance to the rest of humanity is the most important thing. How each person behaves towards each other person, and thus how each group behaves towards each other group, has ripple effects that go where none of us can really understand, and yet, can there be any doubt that much of what humans experience in this world is the direct and indirect consequence of the actions of themselves and others, both close to them and very far removed from them.

Thus, I think that people who really do think about what they believe, and who think about others before they act upon what they believe, can help to improve the world for all. This can be a most deliciously selfish activity, too, because changing the world for the better has positive benefits for the changer as well.

I'm still thinking how to proceed, because that's a pretty huge topic.

Originally Posted by evangelicalhumanist

Thus, I think that people who really do think about what they believe, and who think about others before they act upon what they believe, can help to improve the world for all. This can be a most deliciously selfish activity, too, because changing the world for the better has positive benefits for the changer as well.