I agree with this 100% Angeleyes. If people don't want to get help there is no way you or anyone else can change them.
Like your ripple effect idea . If we show acts of kindness and support to them it will eventually rub off and they may want to change! but they have to make that decision themselves.

That is true Viv! We need to take care of ourselves before we can help others we will all get there eventually

If humanism is a sort of "religion," as some claim but I don't necessarily accept, then I am definitely infected with it.

What makes it different from the other "spiritual" viewpoints I'm seeing here is that humanism is necessarily outward-looking, while many people of a spiritual bent seem to be primarily concerned with taking care of their own spiritual selves. Comments such as the need for "developing inner peace," or "How can we be concerned with healing the world, if there is still hurt, pain and anger within ourselves?" or "If people don't want to get help there is no way you or anyone else can change them." or "We need to take care of ourselves before we can help others."

There may be some kernels of truth here, but I think on balance they largely miss the mark (my mark, of course, so that nobody needs feel they are being criticized. I am commenting about my own viewpoints, not telling others what they ought to do!)

First, the humanist would notice that the vast majority of people on earth really don't have the opportunity to search for "inner peace." The humanist would also note that, even if they found it, and even if everybody, everywhere, were behaving nicely towards each other, the world continues to happen, and misery befalls millions and millions simply by virtue of the vagaries of nature -- weather kills, plate tectonics cause earthquakes, volcanos and tsunamis, biology generates ever-deadlier microorganisms set on our destruction, crops fail and people starve. The list goes on and on.

I claim no moral superiority, because I'm not out there caring for the walking wounded, feeding the starving, etc., but I am beginning to think that human morality concerned primarily with the self, and with not doing bad, is not going to be enough. We are no longer isolated tribes scratching out a living on our own little piece of the landscape, bumping into one another occasionally. Human beings can be anywhere on the planet in a matter of hours. And there is practically no place on earth where plurality - religious, racial, etc. - is not a major issue.

I am grasping for ways to express myself right now, so I'll leave it for a bit and think some more. But the key to my thinking seems to be this notion that we humans, and our institutions, are going to need to make some major changes before misery around the world begins to abate. What those changes are, I don't quite know.

But they will begin with some of the following:

• Thinking of ourselves will not be enough.
• Faith beliefs must never be foist upon anyone.

I think what Harris means here is that as long as our understandings are irrational, we can not rationally share those concerns with each other, and therefore we are unlikely to find common ground. Religious faith seems, to me, to be one of the key impediments to that goal.

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evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.

First, the humanist would notice that the vast majority of people on earth really don't have the opportunity to search for "inner peace."
That is not true. Everyone has the right to choose peace for themselves, no matter under what circumstance he might find himself to be.

The humanist would also note that, even if they found it, and even if everybody, everywhere, were behaving nicely towards each other, the world continues to happen, and misery befalls millions and millions simply by virtue of the vagaries of nature -- weather kills, plate tectonics cause earthquakes, volcanos and tsunamis, biology generates ever-deadlier microorganisms set on our destruction, crops fail and people starve. The list goes on and on.

The spiritual person' approach is different yet the goal is the same: the end to suffering in this world. The spiritual person believes that suffering exists because of the detachment from all. With that in mind the world, and the weather and everything in it and around it would change according to one's consciousness of it. Meaning: If the world (each individual) would "be" at peace (being conscious) this would be reflected in the world and it's atmosphere. We are the weather, the poverty and war.

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May your awareness be perfection

Funny, I said "opportunity," and you changed it to "right." Certainly, the Somali girl being raped and murdered by the Janjaweed has the "right" to choose peace, but unless she's joyful about being raped and murdered, she really doesn't have much choice or chance. I'll grant that the mother, having just had her infant torn from her arms by the tsunami, has the right to be at peace with herself about it. I just wonder how easy it will be for her.

The kids dying of starvation in sub-saharan Africa have every right to die peacefully, and I suppose they do (starving tends to sap one's strength for railing against the world). The millions dying of AIDS, or dengue fever have the right to peace, too. Just a little harder to manage, faced with that, don't you think? Do you think it would be better to send Bhuddist monks than medicine? Do you think they'll have enough time before they die to learn the techniques leading to enlightenment, or is that more easily done when you are being regularly fed?

You must live in a very, very tidy part of the world.

But no, students being shot to death at your schools and universities have the same rights to peace, just the opportunity was taken away from them by madmen.
That would make it pretty difficult to explain how the scientifically verifiable weather happened before there were people around to cause it by not being "at peace." Or maybe it was the angiosperms and fungi that weren't at peace that caused ice ages. Maybe the dinosaurs hadn't learned enough spirituality to prevent the meteor strike. Perhaps continental drift (and the consequent earthquakes and volcanos) was caused by fretting trees and insects.

Meantime, the basic laws of physics do seem to suggest that as long as the sun keeps shining and the earth keeps turning, weather and geological events will continue to happen, whether there are no people, people at peace or people not a peace.

Your beliefs, I'm sure, are fine for you. I doubt that they will do much good for others.

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evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.

Don't you ever get tierd using the same weapons:

Certainly, the Somali girl being raped and murdered by the Janjaweed has the "right" to choose peace, but unless she's joyful about being raped and murdered, she really doesn't have much choice or chance. I'll grant that the mother, having just had her infant torn from her arms by the tsunami, has the right to be at peace with herself about it. I just wonder how easy it will be for her.

Let's instead talk about YOUR pain. If you stoped hiding behind the world's pain, we could maybe make some progress in healing the world.

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May your awareness be perfection

Please don't diagnose me from afar. You don't know anything about my "pain," and you certainly are incorrect to suggest I'm "hiding behind the world's pain." I confront it, while others hide from it, or ignore it and hope it will go away, which is quite a different thing.

I must confess that I am really quite upset that you see mention of terrible suffering -- from my point of view very real and happening right now as I type -- as nothing but a weapon in an argument.

But perhaps you don't even see those situations as real, do you? It has never been made clearer to me just how solipsistic this idea of "spirituality" can be. Your mind is all that exists (perhaps as part of god, I'm not sure), therefore you don't need to be concerned for the welfare or pain of others, because they're not real, they're just made up in your mind (or some mind, of which you fancy yourself a part).

Well, I'm sorry, but it is clear we can't really talk to one another. Your world-view, which seems to me to be classic metaphysical solipsism -- you have identified yourself completely with the all, and if you are the all, then the all is you, and thus only your mind exists. I, on the other hand, identify myself as a humanist, and I know that other humans exist. I know, when I close my eyes and go to sleep at night, millions will suffer, and thousands will die in terrors and agonies that need not happen. For you, it appears, those things don't happen, except in my mind (which is an adjunct of your mind), and therefore can be happily disregarded.

Over such a very fundamental, infinitely wide chasm, I'm afraid we can't reach one another.

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evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.

As a Humanist you are not "Spreading the good news" by spreading your beliefs of fear, hate and blame. We are all responsable for what is happening in this world, not just people that believe in God. The belief in God as you yourself stated is a person matter, it is our approach to a better world.

I see the value in your approach of getting people to "think". For that matter I see the value of every church, foundation and organization that is trying to make a change in this world. I believe that as long as we don't see the value in another's approach (even if it is not based on our belief) we will not have a common ground or a foundation to build a better world on.

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May your awareness be perfection

We don't go to the doctor to tell him "nothing hurts." If we expect anything to be fixed, we pretty much need to first help him identify what's wrong.
But were you not devaluing my approach when you told me to stop talking about what I was talking about, talk instead about my "pain," and "stop hiding behind the world's pain?"

When I read that, it certainly felt like you were devaluing the things that I care about.

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evangelicalhumanist: Greek "eu"=good and "angelos"=messenger. Spreading the good news of Humanism.

Funny, I said "stop hiding" and you changed it to "stop talking". LOL Sorry, couldn't resist. Oh, I'm soo bad.

I feel that you think you are the only one that is concerned about this world. I can't speak for everyone on this board, but I do believe that alone the fact that we are on this board, is because we care. The only difference I see is in the approach we think we can make this world a better place. It's all good!

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May your awareness be perfection